Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
#143885 06/13/05 07:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 114
C
member
Offline
member
C
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 114
spuriosity

If that is an original coinage, sjmaxq, combining "spurious" and "curiosity", it's a clever one.

Bravo!



#143886 06/13/05 08:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
>I may well be wrong, but if so it’ s a consistently wrong view! :)


Let's see if I've managed to cut through all your brythonic blather and welsh waffle, and found something bearing at least a fleeting resemblance to something that might be mistaken for a point.


Basically, it seems that you are saying that Vernon and I are using the word in a sense that is rapidly becoming archaic, is that it? That the word used to mean what we use it to mean, but no longer does, na?


#143887 06/13/05 08:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
>teeth on edge over the use of the word "lay" for "lie down"

That's just USn linguistic hegemony rearing its ugly head again, Mrs F. The usage which troubles you so is completely standard on the civilised side of the Atlantic. To quote from the late and much lamented Arsenal fan, Douglas Adams:
In reply to:


"Now the world has gone to bed," Marvin droned,
"Darkness won't engulf my head,
"I can see by infra-red,
"How I hate the night."

He paused to gather the artistic and emotional strength to tackle the next verse.

"Now I lay me down to sleep,
"Try to count electric sheep,
"Sweet dream wishes you can keep,
"How I hate the night."
"Marvin!" hissed a voice.


(ea)


#143888 06/13/05 08:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
"Now I lay me down to sleep,

But... but... but... that's different, Max! In this case it becomes a transitive verb: the object is me. [/splutter]


#143889 06/13/05 08:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
In reply to:

But... but... but... that's different, Max! In this case it becomes a transitive verb: the object is me. [/splutter]


Well, Eddy, I don't want to jeopardise your respiration any further, so I will point out that la chère Kentuckienne did not make any distinction between transitive and intransitive use. Her exact words were:

"something that does is the w-i-d-e-spread use of lay for lie."

As it happens, the intransitive use is also quite common up here, so it's probably in the best interests of her dental wellbeing if she doesn't come here.


#143890 06/13/05 09:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
M
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
M
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
> rapidly becoming archaic

No.


#143891 06/13/05 09:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273
V
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
V
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273
If sjmaaxq got it wrong, could I impose on your time and ask you to explain how? In your earlier response you said:
In reply to:

My position is that of a right Angle ;)
1. The suffix ~oid originally meant ‘like or sharing some characteristics’
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=-oid
2. When it got appended to ‘fact’, the resulting word got used to initially mean ‘like a fact’ in an ironic deprecatory sense


That is the sense in which sjmaxq and I use it. Then you say further in your reply,

In reply to:


3. Because these were often spurious and short items as Bing notes, it subsequently picked up the connotation of ‘brief fact’
4. By retrofitting this has extended the denotative value of ~oid to include ‘small’, making it similar to ~ette
5. Although the majority of the usage panel are still mostly uncomfortable, it’s a change, it’s happening, and it’s a comparatively rare example of one you can actually observe in progress.


You talk about it "subsequently picking up a new connotation", and that there is "a change happening". If the change of which you speak is not the shift in the meaning of factoid from its initial one to the new one, what is it?

All needling aside, you've piqued my curiosity now, and I want to understand what you're saying. Or rather, I want to figure out why I have not been able to understand it up to this point.


#143892 06/13/05 09:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
M
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
M
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
> If the change of which you speak is not the shift in the meaning of factoid from its initial one to the new one, what is it?

An extension of meaning. Sure, if that became such a dominant usage, it's possible to imagine a world in which the very meaning of the suffix could get wrenched entirely into a new denotation: at that point, 'humanoid' might come to denote 'a small human-like creature'. I can't see evidence of that yet. But I think I do see evidence of language change producing an additional denotative sense for 'questionoid' (through repeated connotative association with the context of 'small'.)

By the way, if anyone thinks this is a trivial word to be loading so much attention on, it's mainly of interest to me as I said above: it's quite rare to be able to pin down language change until well after the event - like the old favourite 'nice'. It is also worth noting that language change often happens at the margins: amongst young people, non-invested people, and through language collision processes. I think this is such a case. <shrug> could well be wrong, of course.


#143893 06/13/05 09:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273
V
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
V
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273
Thanks.


#143894 06/13/05 10:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Sorry, mav. It seems that Vernon and I were having so much fun tag-teaming you that we both missed this crucial little phrase:
In reply to:

I think there is a clear case of language change going on in front of our eyes on this one - ~oid started out as ‘like or not quite real’ and has gathered a denotation of ‘small’ through repeated connotative association."


Obviously I can't speak for Vernon, but I will try to read more carefully before putting the boot in next time.


Page 3 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,330
Members9,182
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
Ineffable, ddrinnan, TRIALNERRA, befuddledmind, KILL_YOUR_SUV
9,182 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,577 guests, and 1 robot.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,542
wofahulicodoc 10,541
LukeJavan8 9,916
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2024 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5