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#14087 - 12/30/00 10:36 AM Words from Greek or Roman myths
lastday Offline
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I don't know if chimerical was a word used in A Word A Day, but it is a good one for this theme. Chimerical means absurd; wildly fanciful. It comes from the creature Chimera in Greek mythology, a fire breathing monster with a lion's head, a goat's body and a serpent's tail.
Does anyone have some other words that would fit in with the "Classical Mythology" theme?


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#14088 - 12/30/00 01:53 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
tsuwm Offline
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from the same mythology we have the winged horse Pegasus, which would make a good suggestion for the person looking for equine names in another thread....


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#14089 - 12/30/00 09:57 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
belMarduk Offline
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I don’t have any new word to add to your quest lastday, I simply want to welcome you on Board.

In case you do not get many replies do not be too discouraged. This part of the Board does not show up entirely on my screen (and I have a pretty large screen) so it probably does not show up on most people’s either. Most of the activity is in the top subjects and we rarely see any posting in this section since it is under the heading of OLD weekly themes that have been consolidated. I only found your questions because I was fiddling about and scrolled down.

Come on up top and chat a while. The subjects are quite varied and you are most welcome.



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#14090 - 12/30/00 10:29 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
tsuwm Offline
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good points, bel; and i apologize for introducing a trojan horse into this thread!


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#14091 - 12/31/00 05:43 AM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
Capital Kiwi Offline
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Didn't see a posting from Helen here, tsuwm. But welcome, Lastday. Would you care to explain to me what your homepage is about?

Cheers -

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#14092 - 01/02/01 02:31 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
lastday Offline
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My homepage: it is supposed to be about literature. I really started it hoping that it would force me to write something everyday, a self improvement thing. It has not worked as well as I had hoped. But maybe I can updated this week. I hope other people will find it useful.


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#14093 - 01/02/01 03:11 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
of troy Offline
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I fit this theme in several ways-- Helen is my given name, of troy my prefered screen name, (everywhere), and my last name is griffin-- a mythical creature with the head of an eagle, and the body of lion..

well griffin is the i use... i was born reilly, but by the time i divorced, i had been griffin longer than i was reilly, and i didn't want to have different name than my children-- especialy since i didn't have cusody.. (they were 15 and 17 at the time--)the age where getting it doesn't really matter too much who has offical custody, kid will spend time were they want when they want

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#14094 - 01/02/01 04:03 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
tsuwm Offline
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the worthless word for the day is: rhadamanthine
http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-rha2.htm

also, dictionary.com's word of the day: stentorian
which "comes from Stentor, a Greek herald in the Trojan War. According to Homer's Iliad, his voice was
as loud as that of fifty men combined."


-joe (this space for rent) friday

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#14095 - 01/02/01 06:16 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
Capital Kiwi Offline
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Have to agree with Joe Friday on this one - although (had I known of its existence) I might well have applied it, justly or not, to my parents at various times ...

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#14096 - 01/03/01 05:19 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
of troy Offline
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That your parents where just and severe? or as loud as 50 mens voices combined? or both?



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#14097 - 01/04/01 01:37 AM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
Capital Kiwi Offline
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No, no, it was my uncle who was the sergeant-major. And he never raised his voice ...

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#14098 - 01/05/01 10:54 AM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
belMarduk Offline
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>And he never raised his voice ...

That is often scarier.


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#14099 - 01/05/01 03:18 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
Capital Kiwi Offline
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Yep, he was a Warrant Officer First Class - highest non-commissioned rank in the army. He was a short man - just a bit over 5ft 3in - and giants trembled at his approach. This included all commissioned ranks up to about Major as well as the other ranks ... and everyone over Major listened to what he had to say very carefully.

Now THAT is power. I've always aspired to it but never managed to come anywhere near achieving it.

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#14100 - 04/07/01 01:24 AM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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#14101 - 04/09/01 08:00 AM Re: Words from Germanic Myths
Sparteye Offline
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Tuesday = Tiu's day
Wednesday = Woden's day
Thursday = Thor's day
Friday = Frigg's day


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#14102 - 04/09/01 12:25 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
teresag Offline
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lastday, chimera is also a term from genetics meaning "an organism consisting of two or more tissues of different genetic composition, produced as a result of mutation, grafting, or the mixture of cell populations from different zygotes." (definition swiped from dictionary.com)


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#14103 - 04/09/01 06:33 PM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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#14104 - 04/10/01 08:46 AM Re: Words from Germanic Myths
Sparteye Offline
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The American Heritage Dictionary summarizes the weekday homage to Germanic gods thusly:

The names of the days of our week are based on the ancient astrological notion that the seven celestial bodies (sun, moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn) revolving around the stationary Earth influenced events on Earth and that each the bodies controlled the first hour of the day named after it. The system was brought into Hellenistic (hi of Troy!) Egypt from Mesopotamia. In 321 AD, Constantine the Great grafted the system onto the Roman calendar and declared the sequence: Dies Solis, Dies Lunae, Dies Martis, Dies Mercurii, Dies Iovis, Dies Veneris, and Dies Saturni. The Roman system was adopted throughout western Europe, and in the Germanic languages, including Old English, four of the Roman gods were converted into the corresponding Germanic gods. So: Sunnandaeg, Monandaeg, Tiwesdaeg (the god Tiu, like Mars, was a god of war), Wodensdaeg (the god Woden, like Mercury, was quick and eloquent), Thunresdaeg (the god Thunor (OE) or Thor (ON), like Jupiter, was lord of the sky), Frigedaeg (the goddess Frigg, like Venus, was the goddess of love), and Saeternesdaeg.

The same source lists "Tiu" as the Germanic god of war and the sky, and says its source is "OE Tiw. See deiw-" The Indo-European roots index entry for "deiw-" tells us that diew means to shine, and in many derivatives, sky, heaven, god. It also says that "Tiwes" is the genitive of "Tiu." [finally, the answer!]

Important derivatives of "deiw" include Tuesday, deity, divine, jovial, July, Jupiter, Zeus, dial, diary, dismal, journey and psychedelic. (Ha! I didn't expect to tie all those terms together today. Thanks, Max, for getting me started on this. )


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#14105 - 04/10/01 04:41 PM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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#14106 - 04/11/01 02:26 PM Re: Words from Germanic Myths
inselpeter Offline
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Frigedaeg (the goddess Frigg, like Venus, was the goddess of love)

From whence "friggid?"


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#14107 - 05/08/01 09:23 AM Re: Words from Germanic Myths
Bingley Offline
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and presumably frigging.

Bingley
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#14108 - 05/08/01 09:41 AM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
Bingley Offline
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In reply to:

What about words derived from other mythologies?


Shaman, djinn, banshee.

Would you believe banshee has made its way into Indonesian? The meaning has changed somewhat though. Transvestism/trans-sexuality is a much more openly acknowledged reality here than in European-derived cultures, and it can be very difficult sometimes to tell the difference. Going back to the nineteen sixties, apparently English speaking foreigners used to call transvestite/trans-sexual prostitutes banshees from their habit of calling out to potential customers. This was then adopted as a slang term by Indonesians in the slightly altered form of banci (pronounced ban-chee). The more neutral term, in case you were wondering, is wadam (a portmanteau word from wanita (woman) and Adam) or waria (again a portmanteau word from wanita and pria (man)).

Bingley

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#14109 - 05/08/01 12:05 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
of troy Offline
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I always wondered if the Ozzie/Zild term "sheila" as a generic term for a woman or a girl owes it roots to "Sheila Na Gig" there are several sites about Sheila-- an irish god similar to Kali-- sometime portrayed as old woman, some time with a skull-- not a head-- some times grinning-- (or is it with teeth bared?) and alway with her legs spread and her vulva open.. some images ( many have been destroyed)--i thought this was one of the best.. since it has several images.. (and most are scarier that erotic!) She was a god of Birth/regeneration and of death.. a death head , a sexual inviting vulva...
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~jup/witches/qa/q126.html

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#14110 - 05/25/01 09:18 PM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
lastday Offline
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In reply to:

lastday, chimera is also a term from genetics meaning "an organism consisting of two or more tissues of different genetic composition, produced as a result of mutation, grafting, or the mixture of cell populations from different zygotes."


considering this, I guess this might have been a good word for Words from Medicine as well.


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#14111 - 05/26/01 12:10 AM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
tsuwm Offline
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nymphs, and all the subclasses thereof, such as dryads.


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#14112 - 06/05/01 02:28 AM Re: Words from Greek or Roman myths
doc_comfort Offline
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Registered: 01/18/01
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As far as I can tell, just about anything would be good for Words from Medicine.

Rapport was established superficially.

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#14113 - 11/06/01 07:14 AM Post deleted by Wordwind
Wordwind Offline
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#14114 - 11/06/01 09:28 AM Re: Stentor
wwh Offline
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I think I recall reading somewhere that Stentor, while useful, was not really admired by the Greeks, and regarded as a loudmouth.
Off on a tangent, an idea we get from mythology is the use of a ball of string to find way back out of a maze, after Ariadne's giving Theseus a ball of string to escape from the Labyrinth, after slaying the Minotaur. But our word "clue" apparently is not the Greek word. Who remembers that? I don't.
There are a lot of mythology sites. Here is a fairly good one to start with:

http://www.oup-usa.org/sc/0195143388/glossaries/phrase_s.html


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#14115 - 11/06/01 03:53 PM Re: Stentor
Faldage Offline
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And the stentees were all those poor suckers who had to listen to him.


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#14116 - 11/06/01 05:25 PM Re: Sphinx
wwh Offline
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I took this quote out of URL above, because it might interest others as it did me, to learn etymology of word "sphinx" I had also forgotten there was more than one sphinx
The sphinx terrorized Thebes before the arrival of Oedipus (see Oedipal Complex). She was a hybrid
creature with the head of a woman, body of a lion, wings of an eagle, and the tail of a serpent. She
punished those who failed to answer her riddle with strangulation (the Greek verb sphingein means to
strangle)
. At some point the Greek sphinx became associated with Egyptian iconography, in which the
sphinx had a lion's body and a hawk's or man's head. When we liken someone to a sphinx, we have in
mind the great riddler of the Greeks and not the Egyptian conception. A sphinx is an inscrutable person,
given to enigmatic utterances (the Greek word ainigma means a riddle).


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#14117 - 11/06/01 07:12 PM Post deleted by Wordwind
Wordwind Offline
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#14118 - 11/06/01 07:57 PM Re: Sphinx
wwh Offline
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Dear WW: The Greeks put masks on the actors to keep them from developing a star cult and fancy salaries.


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#14119 - 11/07/01 09:58 AM Re: Patricide
Faldage Offline
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What is more perplexing is how long it took Oedipus to figure out the fact that he had murdered his father.

He knew he'd offed the king. He jus din't know it was his daddy.

Course, since daddy had tried to off him, it was sort of time delayed self-defense.


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#14120 - 11/07/01 11:40 AM Re: Patricide
wwh Offline
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I onder,which bothered Oedipus the more, patricide or incest?


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#14121 - 11/07/01 04:01 PM Re: Patricide
jimthedog Offline
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I would be more bothered by the incest. He dedn't know it was his father, and dad wasn't alive to remind him all the time after he found out. Anyway incest is grosser.


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#14122 - 11/07/01 06:21 PM Re: .
Wordwind Offline
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.

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#14123 - 11/07/01 07:59 PM Re: Patricide
wwh Offline
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Dear WW: one case in which a young man's having a middle-aged mistress was not a good idea.


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#14124 - 11/07/01 10:11 PM Re: Patricide
consuelo Offline
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Mistress, Bill? I understood that he married her. Otherwise, what gain? Didn't he gain control of all that was his father's by marrying his mother? The tragedy is that it would have all been his anyway with only a little patience, which it seems his was a little askew?


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#14125 - 11/08/01 07:59 AM Re: Patricide
Faldage Offline
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Oed didn't know that he'd offed the king.

I guess it all depends on whose version of the story you listen to (Rashomon anyone?); according to Graves it wasn't like that at all (but then what was?).

The -ology site wasn't really an -ology site, just a semiconvenient way of listing a whole bunch all at once. You can do the same thing with *gry to find all the words that M-W recognizes that end in gry. If you're hungry enough and it doesn't make you too angry.


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#14126 - 11/08/01 08:30 AM Re: Patricide
Wordwind Offline
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Faldage: My reference for Oed was Sophocles...

And, yes, it wasn't an ology site per se, but it was a site to access ologies and no one had even gotten me that close. I wonder whether siteology is a fast-growing study?

WW


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#14127 - 11/08/01 08:58 AM Re: Patricide
Faldage Offline
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My reference for Oed was Sophocles...

That's the great thing about myths; they provide so much fodder for story-telling and reinterpretation. But I don't think anyone considers, e.g., Jesus Christ Super-Star to be a definitive telling of the central myth of the Christian church.




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#14128 - 11/08/01 01:55 PM Re: Patricide
Wordwind Offline
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Well, Faldage, good point about Jesus Christ, Super Star, so I'm all ears about your Oedipus who differs from Sophocles' Oed. Tell your tale here, if you get a chance. In the Graves you mention, it's flat-out stated that Oedipus knew he was killing the king of Thebes? And that, by killing the Sphinx, he was forgiven and then married the queen? Or was it more planned? Did he fall in love with the queen, kill the king, solve the riddle, marry the queen, bring about the plague, learn the truth, blind himself a la Sophocles, and so on....or does is the Graves completely different?

This is very, very interesting. So, if you have a moment to jot the Graves Oed facts down, thanks a lot. I'd look 'em up myself, but I've got rehearsal with the Munchkins to plan for...

Best regards,
WW


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#14129 - 11/08/01 03:13 PM Re: Patricide
Faldage Offline
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is the Graves completely different?

As I remember it, yes. I'll gotta look it up tonight, but I may not get to it till the weekend. Tonight's gone be getting the lovely AnnaS back on line. Not to mention laundry.

For a teaser, the Sphinx's riddle is glossed from a whole nother story.


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#14130 - 11/09/01 07:56 AM Re: Patricide
Wordwind Offline
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Faldage: Looking forward to hearing about the Graves. Thanks for checking it out. I won't be able to read anything this weekend till Sunday due to our rural phones lines being down.... But, anyway, good luck with getting AnnaS all set up, and happy hunting through the Graves. (Gosh, that sounds lugubrious!)

WW


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#14131 - 11/09/01 10:37 AM Re: Patricide
wwh Offline
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Not salubrious, but not necessarily lugubrious. One man's grave robbing is another man's archaeology.


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#14132 - 11/11/01 09:04 PM Re: Patricide
Wordwind Offline
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So true, wwh, about the archaeology. We used to have mummies displayed in the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts, but I don't think any may be viewed anymore. I'll have to check it out one weekend to see whether there are any that remain, so to speak.

I can understand how sensitive people would protest the display, but, honestly, those mummies were the highpoint of visits by most children...

MM Murmuring Mummy, or WordWind upside-down


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#14133 - 11/12/01 12:46 AM Re: Patricide
Bingley Offline
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Immanuel Velikovsky had the theory that the story of Oedipus was actually a memory of the pharaoh Akhenaten, but I forget why.

Bingley
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#14134 - 11/12/01 09:29 AM Re: Patricide
Faldage Offline
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Immanuel Velikovsky had the theory ... but I forget why.

Because he was whacked out.


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#14135 - 11/12/01 11:41 AM Re: Patricide
wwh Offline
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Worlds in Collision, 1950, and Earth in Upheaval, 1955. Velikovsky suffered permanent concussion from writing this.


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#14136 - 11/12/01 08:10 PM Re: The Oresteia/Mourning Becomes Electra
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Eugene O'Neill very consciously encased his great play, Mourning Becomes Electra, within the patterened shell of the Greek Electra myth, in a loose parallel of Aeschylus' timeless tragedy, The Oresteia. Only O'Neill set his work in post-Civil War New England among a Yankee aristocratic family, the Mannons. Lot's of Oedipal subtext! Read O'Neill's play...all the answers are there! Really.


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#14137 - 11/13/01 05:04 PM Re: sphinx
Keiva Offline
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F notes that the Sphinx's riddle is glossed from a whole nother story.
Hercules, is it not? Or is my nose out of joint?




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#14138 - 11/13/01 07:02 PM Re: Patricide
Wordwind Offline
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Bingley wrote, Immanuel Velikovsky had the theory that the story of Oedipus was actually a memory of the pharaoh Akhenaten...

If you Google ["Immanuel Velikovsky" Oedipus], there's some really interesting information about Velikovsky's analysis of why the Oedipus myth came out of Egyptian lore. Faldage suggested I check it out, and I did. One salient point Velikovsky made was the appearance of the sphinx in Sophocles, a most decidedly un-Grecian monster and ultra-Egyptian one. Velikovsky also points out that the meeting of the three roads where Oedipus kills his father in the Sophocles tragedy would have been unusual in how roads were laid in Greece, but not unusual in roads meeting at an oasis as shown on ancient Egyptian maps. There's by far more fodder at the trough of Velikovsky if you have some time....

Best regards,
DubDub


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#14139 - 11/14/01 08:54 AM Re: sphinx revised
Faldage Offline
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Winged Moon Goddess of Thebes representing the two parts of the Theban year; the lion for the waxing part and the serpent for the waning part. The new king gives his devotions to her before marrying the Queen, which he must do to become king. The riddle was invented to explain the image of an infant, a warrior and an old man worshipping Her.

This according to Graves in The Greek Myths.




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#14140 - 11/14/01 09:01 AM Re: Sphinges
Faldage Offline
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the appearance of the sphinx in Sophocles, a most decidedly un-Grecian monster and ultra-Egyptian one.

The Greek Sphinx and the Egyptian Sphinx are decidedly diferent thangs. The former with wings and a serpents tail, the latter with just a plain old lion's bod and a human head. It's like comparing horses and unicorns.


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#14141 - 11/14/01 09:37 AM Re: Sphinges
wwh Offline
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I was interested to learn that the etymology of "Sphinx" carries forward to two very vital structures in the human alimentary canal, exceedingly important check points! The duodenal sphincter and the,er, final one.


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#14142 - 11/14/01 10:52 AM Re: Sphinges
Faldage Offline
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Again according to Graves, sphinx means the throttler. Perhaps the Egyptian Sphinx was so named simply for its superficial resemblance to the Greek Sphinx.


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#14143 - 01/03/02 04:16 PM Re: Please give me a clue
wwh Offline
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We've all heard that poor Ariadne gave that turd Theseus who was to betray her,
a ball of string to help him find his way back out of the Labyrinth after killing the
Minotaur. From this we get clew, meaning a ball of cord, and also clue, meaning
information leading to a solution of a problem. But WHAT IN HELL DID ARIADNE
CALL IT?


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#14144 - 01/03/02 04:22 PM Re: Please give me a clue
Faldage Offline
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WHAT IN HELL DID ARIADNE CALL IT?

She probably called it a ball of cord. In Minoan, of course.


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#14145 - 01/03/02 04:29 PM Re: Please give me a clue
wwh Offline
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OK, wise guy. WHAT IN HELL DID THESEUS CALL IT?


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#14146 - 01/03/02 08:53 PM Re: Please give me a clue
consuelo Offline
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My ticket out.-Theseus


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#14147 - 01/03/02 10:19 PM Re: Please give me a clue
wwh Offline
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I'm really interested in finding out what the Greek or Roman words would have been for a ball of twine. They must have had words. Why do we have only a much later, apparently Germanic word?


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#14148 - 01/04/02 03:14 AM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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#14149 - 01/04/02 07:48 AM Re: Please give me a clue
Faldage Offline
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http://www.daedalus.gr/DAEI/THEME/Knossos.htm

Minoan civilization was about 1000 years before the founding of the city of Rome. Latin ain' gone do you much good when you phase the linear time sequence to put yourself back there to talk to Ariadne to tell her don't do it. You might as well speak Vogon to her.


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#14150 - 01/05/02 05:33 PM Re: Please give me a clue
WhitmanO'Neill Offline
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Loc: Rio Grande, Cape May County, N...
a single word for "a ball of twine."

Uh...baseball?what, Max? no retort for that magnificient cricket quote I found for ya?


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#14151 - 01/05/02 07:45 PM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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#14152 - 01/05/02 07:50 PM Re: Please give me a clue
wwh Offline
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I have news for you (expletive omitted). For thousands of years women had been spinning, if only with a whorl spindle, and they had to carefully wind the yarn into a ball, to keep it from getting tangled. The Theseus-Ariadne myth is very old. I have no idea when it first saw print, nor any idea when it was first translated into English. NicholasW gave a couple words that were in the ballpark, but did not mean balls of thread. But the first translation had to be from a Greek or Roman word that was for no reason I can think of changed to a Germanic root. Incidentally twine means two threads twisted together for increased strength.


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#14153 - 01/05/02 08:02 PM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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#14154 - 01/06/02 12:22 AM Re: Please give me a clue
WhitmanO'Neill Offline
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And, don't forget Dr. Bill, the Celts were mainly shepherds who spun wool for thousands of years. So perhaps this missing linguistic link was coined in Gaelic, or an earlier Celtic language.


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#14155 - 01/06/02 12:53 AM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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#14156 - 01/06/02 10:01 AM Re: Please give me a clue
wwh Offline
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I don't have any proof the Greeks spoke Greek, nor any that the Latins spoke Latin. They probably wrote in English. Or maybe Gaelic.


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#14157 - 01/06/02 02:56 PM Re: Sine glomere
Faldage Offline
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Jeesh!

I tole ya the Latin word. I also tole ya the Latin word was way too late to be of any use. Parbly the Greek wouln't do ya no good neither. Minoan, whatever it was, and don' nobody know, not even if it were Indo-European, Hamito-Semitic or sommat entirely else, is a whole nother ballpark (or cricket pitch if you'd druther) an' totally unknown. Ain' no way you gone get to tell Ariadne to dump that Theseus loser. An' if ya wants ta tell Theseus sommat yer gone is haveta use sommat other than Modren Greek; ya'll haveta know it in Ionian or Dorian or whatever it was they spoke in Athens time back way back,

Jeesh!


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#14158 - 01/06/02 04:29 PM Re: Sine glomere
wwh Offline
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Dear Faldage: My point is this. What was the source of the English version of the legend? I would like to find it, to see if I could find the word that some idiot used a Germanic root for, when he could, I'm sure, have made a nice coinage from the classical root. Rooti-toot-toot.Cocking a snook.
I've been having fun looking, but have not found anything worth posting about. Hoped you might succeed where I have been unable to.


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#14159 - 01/06/02 06:33 PM Re: Sine glomere
Faldage Offline
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the word that some idiot used a Germanic root for, when he could, I'm sure, have made a nice coinage from the classical root.

You want someone should make up a word from a classical root just because the story came from a classical source? When we have a perfectly good word in English? Clue, BTW, traces back to the same IE root, gel- that spawned the Latin glomer-.

OK. but be careful what you ask for:

Ariadne gave Theseus a glom that he might find his way out the maze after the Minotaur made mincemeat out of him. Theseus glommed on to it with the knowledge that he wan't gone be mincemeat and that he would make Ariadne pay for her evil ways.

There, I hope you're healthy.


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#14160 - 01/06/02 06:44 PM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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#14161 - 01/07/02 12:37 PM Re: Sine glomere
wwh Offline
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Dear Max: I still wonder what Greek or Latin text was the source of the legend in English.


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#14162 - 01/07/02 02:28 PM .
Max Quordlepleen Offline
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#14163 - 01/07/02 04:00 PM Re: Sine glomere
wwh Offline
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I was hoping our illustrious contributor NicholasW might be able to provide that.


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#14164 - 01/11/02 06:52 AM Re: Unus glomus
Faldage Offline
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Dr. Bill wonders what Greek or Latin text was the source of the legend in English.

Graves cites Apollodorus, Plutarch (who quotes Philochorus, Simonides et al.), Scholiast, Pausanias, Callimachus, Catullus et al.


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#14165 - 01/11/02 02:52 PM Re: Unus glomus
wwh Offline
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Thanks for the "clews" Faldage. I anticipate problems untangling that mountain of manuscripts.


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#14166 - 01/11/02 03:21 PM Re: Alterus glomus
Faldage Offline
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I get all my stuff about this from Robert Graves: The Greek Myths. Look it up at amazon.com. Then buy it from your local independent bookstore.


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#14167 - 01/11/02 03:55 PM Re: Alterus glomus
wwh Offline
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Dear Faldage: I have given up buying books. Indications are that I will be unable to read before very long. I have hardly room for computer manuals. Have to throw books away.If I can't find it on Internet, I have to do without.


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#14168 - 01/11/02 04:08 PM Re: Alterus glomus
Faldage Offline
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Dear Dr. Bill

There was mention of an audio tape on the amazon site.


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#14169 - 01/11/02 07:18 PM Re: Alterus glomus
wwh Offline
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Dear Faldage: thank you for your kind consideration. My hearing is far worse impaired than my vision.That's why AWADtalk is my only form of recreation. I read a couple magazines with a six inch magnifying glass, and can occasionally find a word to use here, but that's it. Probably as the Katzenjammer Kids used to say, I brung it on myself.


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#14170 - 01/12/02 02:35 AM Re: Alterus glomus
consuelo Offline
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What, you didn't believe them when they told you it would make you go blind?


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#14171 - 01/12/02 09:20 AM Re: Alterus glomus
wwh Offline
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Dear consuelo: At least hair didn't grow on my palms.


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#14172 - 01/13/02 03:05 AM Re: Sine glomere
Bingley Offline
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With a bit of rooting around in Perseus I found the story of Theseus and Ariadne as told by Apollodorus. The Greek word used was linon, the most relevant dictionary definition of which is cord or fishing-line (http://perseus.csad.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=#19760). In Ovid's poem "Letter from Ariadne to Theseus", he uses the Latin word filum, which means thread or string (http://perseus.csad.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=#19760. If you're carrying a thread or cord long enough to trace your path through a labyrinth, I suppose the obvious way to carry it is wound up into a ball.

Bingley
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Bingley

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#14173 - 01/13/02 07:28 AM Re: Sine glomere
Bingley Offline
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I am an idiot, I forgot to look in the obvious place. Perseus also has Sir Thomas North's translation of Plutarch's life of Theseus (this is the translation Shakespeare used for his plays "Julius Caesar" and "Anthony and Cleopatra"). The relevant part says in English:


Furthermore, after he was arrived in Creta, he slew there the Minotaur (as the most part of ancient authors do write) by the means and help of Ariadne: who being fallen in fancy with him, did give him a clue of thread, by the help whereof she taught him, how he might easily wind out of the turnings and crancks of the labyrinth.


(http://perseus.csad.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.03.0078&query=chapter=#281&layout=&loc=Thes. 18)

Plutarch also uses the Greek word linon I mentioned in my previous post. However, I have this idea that Sir Thomas North did not translate direct from the Greek, but translated a French (?) translation of Plutarch into English.

Also relevant is Chaucer's Legend of Good Women (I had a vague feeling Chaucer wrote about Theseus and found this by googling Chaucer Theseus Ariadne, where I found a reference to the Legend of Good Women amongst all the stuff about the Knight's Tale, which is about a different episode in Theseus's life, and then googling Chaucer Legend of Good Women). Lines 2012 to 2018 read:

And, for the hous is crinkled to and fro,
And hath so queinte weyes for to go --
For hit is shapen as the mase is wroght --
(130) Therto have I a remedie in my thoght,
That, by a clewe of twyne, as he hath goon,
The same wey he may returne anoon,
Folwing alwey the threed, as he hath come.


(http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/GoodWomen/ariadne.html)

I'll leave it to someone else to find something on Chaucer's sources for this or to push it further back.

Bingley
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#14174 - 01/13/02 05:37 PM Re: Sine glomere
wwh Offline
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Dear Bingley: That Chaucer site is marvelous. If I read it right, Ariadne and her sister Phedre plot to give Theseus "balls of towe and wax" with which to choke the Minotaur, because in the Labyrinth there is not room to use a sword or spear. The word "clewe of twyne" is also used to help him find his way out, after killing the bull with a dagger (presumably) provided by the jailer.

I wonder why he used both words. Perhaps to fit his meter better?

And we shul make him balles eek also
Of wexe and towe
, that, whan he gapeth faste,
(120) Into the bestes throte he shal hem caste
To slake his hunger and encombre his teeth;
And right anon, whan that Theseus seeth
The beste achoked, he shal on him lepe
To sleen him, or they comen more to-hepe.
2010 This wepen shal the gayler, or that tyde,
Ful privily within the prison hyde;
And, for the hous is crinkled to and fro,
And hath so queinte weyes for to go --
For hit is shapen as the mase is wroght --
(130) Therto have I a remedie in my thoght,
That, by a clewe of twyne, as he hath goon,
The same wey he may returne anoon,
Folwing alwey the threed, as he hath come.
And, what that he this beste hath overcome,
2020 Then may he fleen awey out of this drede,
And eek the gayler may he with him lede,
And him avaunce at hoom in his contree,
Sin that so greet a lordes sone is he.
This is my reed, if that he dar hit tak


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#14175 - 04/25/02 03:10 PM Post deleted by SilkMuse
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#14176 - 04/25/02 03:22 PM Re: a clue
Faldage Offline
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may we assume that "swine" means two pigs twisted together?

We may assume anything we please. Sometimes reality has a way of biting us where we least like it.


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#14177 - 04/25/02 06:09 PM Re: Please give me a clue
wwh Offline
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Posts: 13858
Dear SilkMuse: I think "swine" goes back further than Germanic in origin: e.g. Latin "sus"
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.


Appendix I

Indo-European Roots


ENTRY:
s-
DEFINITION:
Pig. Contracted from *su-; probably a derivative of seu-1.1. Suffixed form
*su-no-. a. swine, from Old English swn, swine; b. keelson, from Old Norse
svn, swine. Both a and b from Germanic *swnam. 2. Suffixed form *su-k-. a. (i)
hog, from Old English hogg, hog, from British Celtic *hukk-, from Celtic expressive
form *sukko-, swine, snout of a swine; (ii) socket, from Anglo-Norman soc,
plowshare, perhaps from Celtic *sukko-; b. sow2, from Old English sugu, sow,
from Germanic *sug. 3. Basic form *s-. sow2, from Old English s, from
Germanic *s-. 4. soil2, from Latin ss, pig. 5. Hyades, hyena; hyoscine, from Greek
hs, swine. (Pokorny s-s 1038.)


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#14178 - 04/25/02 11:30 PM Re: a clue
Keiva Offline
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may we assume that "swine" means two pigs twisted together?
We may assume anything we please. Sometimes reality has a way of biting us where we least like it.

Geez, faldage, lighten up. As Connie said elsewhere, "It's a joke, son."
How come folks keep taking a bite out of a brand-new poster today? [3 times so far]


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