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I was just wondering if anybody knows anything about the history and origin of phrasal verbs.
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RunTumTugger inquires into the history and origin of phrasal verbs.
Do you mean like run into as in run into an old friend?
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Welcome, and cute name, RTT! Didn't I just see you on the chat?
Could you give some examples of phrasal verbs, please?
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See, you learn something every day. Thanks for the links FS.
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Some great sites there, Father Steve.
The history of the phrasal verb, as I see it, is rooted in the Germanic languages. There is a concept in modern German that they refer to as separable prefixes; beligerentyouth could probably supply better information than I could about separable prefixes in German, but suffice it to say that the prefixes in question are, in general, indistinguishable from prepositions. They can also be placed at the end of a sentence in some constructions of the normal German sentence. Father Steve's third link above is a very good description of phrasal verbs and I won't go into that here. I will add that traditional grammarians seem to have lost the concept of phrasal verbs and it is not something that is taught in English as a First Language classes. I'm glad to see that it is a concept taught in ESL. But back to the history. The concept is recognized in most Germanic languages that I know anything much about but in English it has given rise to the complaints about ending sentences with prepositions. Since they don't teach it in EFL classes, the difference between a preposition and the separable prefix has become glossed over and folks who are trying too hard to be correct will often come up with extremely contorted sentences. Winston Churchill's famous "It is a silly rule up with which I shall not put" is, of course, a humorous (or should I say humourous) riposte.
The idea of BASIC English, a subset of the language consisting of just several thousand words, relies heavily on the phrasal verb which prevents it from being one of the things it was supposed to be which is an easy road to English for foreign language speakers.
Was that confusing enough? If not I can try again.
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a humorous (or should I say humourous) riposte
I had to go and look it up to be sure, but my Shorter Oxford tells me that even in the UK we spell it 'humorous'.
Why, anyone? Especially since it also gives humourless and humoursome, both of which keep their u.
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Humourless and humoursome are relatively modern coinages within English, humour + living affix.
Humorous however is a Latin word űmôrôsus. The stem is űmôr- with long O. (The initial H arose in post-classical Latin when H was largely silent in common speech.) The long vowel became short in final position, giving űmor 'humour'.
This vowel difference was preserved in Old/Middle French, giving rise to modern French humeur ~ humoreux and English humour ~ humorous.
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How do Brits & colonists spell 'glamorous'? If 'glamour' also loses its U when adding the -ous suffix, I'd guess there must be a rule out there to avoid repetition of the 'ou.' Of course, we in the States keep a check on our extraneous vowels ['nod to jmh' emoticon]
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>How do Brits & colonists spell 'glamorous'? If 'glamour' also loses its U when adding the -ous suffix, I'd guess there must be a rule out there to avoid repetition of the 'ou.'
glamorous ['nod to Annastrophic' emoticon]
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How do Brits & colonists spell 'glamorous'?Humph! Which colonists? The ones in N America or the rest of the erstwhile Empire? As it happens we all spell it the same way but I chortle at the inference that Americans have somehow expunged their colonial origins. 
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Phyliss pointed out Humph! Which colonists? The ones in N America or the rest of the erstwhile Empire? As it happens we all spell it the same way but I chortle at the inference that Americans have somehow expunged their colonial origins.
Well said, Phyllis. You do realise, of course that New Zealand is rapidly being "colonised" from Sth Africa. In the province where I live, Hawke's Bay, meeting a GP without a Sth African accent is becoming unusual. A friend who moved from the Republic in 1967 had a braai at her place a couple of years ago, and of the 30 non-family guests, 28 were doctors!
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Humph! Which colonists? The ones in N America or the rest of the erstwhile Empire? As it happens we all spell it the same way but I chortle at the inference that Americans have somehow expunged their colonial origins. Welcome! Great name for one who is obviously not a philistine!  Stick around, and may we all chortle in our glee. So, Jo aka jmh [arched eyebrow emoticon], and any other fellow philologists out there: have we established there is indeed a "once-only 'ou' " rule among y'all in the UK & in the former colonies who still embrace the current Monarch's English?
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I chortle at the inference that Americans have somehow expunged their colonial origins.
How can you say that we have expunged our colonial origins? Our schools teach history, but there's no reason to keep calling us colonies. I find it rather offensive to call any sovereign nation a colony. Colony implies that a nation is still subject to or closely associated politically with another, superior country. I think most people are aware that we made a little break in that connection about 225 years ago. We fought a vicious war and proved our superiority. (No offense intended.) From what I understand New Zealand and Australia were granted their sovereignty by parliamentary legislation, but that doesn't make them colonies. I see the term colony as a derogatory word when talking about other countries, especially when we "colonies" were the ones saving the UK in the World Wars.
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I'm afraid, jazz, that's it's reactions such as that which ensure the continuance of the practice. 
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You do realise, of course that New Zealand is rapidly being "colonised" from Sth Africa. Oh, you poor dears! One can only imagine the unholy linguistic offspring which will result from that combination. I see you already know "braai" (it still sounds better than "barbie" to my partisan ears). I am told that in Perth (Australia) the locals have complained that when they send their infants to pre-primary school they come home with Sith Effrican accents! A friend who moved from the Republic in 1967 had a braai at her place a couple of years ago, and of the 30 non-family guests, 28 were doctors! Ouch! That really brings home the reality of the brain drain. (Although there used to be a crack that the flood of emigration was a good thing since it raised the average IQ in both countries.)
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Jazz wrote: We fought a vicious war and proved our superiority.
"Nationalism (and patriotism) is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race." Einstein
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Ouch! That really brings home the reality of the brain drain. (Although there used to be a crack that the flood of emigration was a good thing since it raised the average IQ in both countries.)I've obviously missed some permutation here, Phyllisstein. You must be a yappie! [querying emoticon] Most of the South African emigrants I meet are either coloured or come from English roots. One of the exceptions is, of course, Irene van Dyk, one of NZ's  top netball players. The quote concerning raising IQs is not at all new. A former NZ prime minister, the late great dictator Rob Muldoon, used it, famously in Australasia, in relation to emigration from Zild to Oz.
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If this word has crossed the pond, I missed it.
Is this the Kiwi name for a sport US'n know by another name, or is it a NZ-specific sport? Seems like it might mean basketball, but there are lots of other sports with nets (tennis, soccer/football, lepidopterificationism).
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My favorite non-specific name for a specific sport is round ball. Near as I can figure it applies to almost anything but American football and rugby* (not to mention the ballless sports, such as ice hockey and curling).
*And, of course, those old standards Gaelic football and footie.
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playing footsie is a sport? Oh, I am a sports fan! dang-- read your post again-- footie? whats footie? and i guess round ball could be applied to hurling. Its played with something closer to a ball than a puck. I guess the only sport i am left really enjoying is indoor golf 
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I think that's what they call it. Have to check with the Ozzies. Australian Rules Football. Used to be big on US TV for a while. I was always confused that there were times when someone would get totally porpillated by an opposing player and the ref would just stand there whistling Waltzing Matilda and then, a moment later, someone would get a little bit too close to someone else and the ref would be blowing his whistle, jumping up and down, waving his hands around and screaming and the guy with the ball would get a free kick. Then we were watching a championship game and we had an Ozzie with us who explained it to us. It all made sense. If you catch the ball from a kick or a pass, the point at which you catch the ball is the mark. If you're behind the mark you're safe from being tackled (or whatever it's called) and if you're ahead of the mark you're fair game.
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Belligerentyouth reminded us that "Nationalism (and patriotism) is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race." Einstein
Thank you for that - that is one of my favourite quotes of all time, expressing as it does an opinion very dear to me. I noticed that you inserted patriotism in parentheses. If you want a quote along similar lines that specifically mentions patriotism, try this one:
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior
to all others because you were born in it." ~ George Bernard Shaw
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Netball is another one of the those sports which has somehow passed the US of A by - in spite of the fact that from memory it was invented by an American as a "less athletic" form of basketball. Little did he know ... It's mostly played by women, although there is an increasing number of men's teams about. Social netball is often played by teams of mixed gender. Most New Zealand schoolgirls go through at least a phase of playing netball; some go on to adult teams and a select few make it to the national side. Irene van Dyk was captain of South Africa's team, but emigrated to Zild and is now playing goal shoot/goal attack for us, most recently against South Africa. We won, of course. Anyway, from a technical perspective it's played by a team of seven on each side, has hoops as in basketball but no backboard - you have to be able to put the ball straight through the hoop. You are not allowed to dribble the ball; all ball movement is by passing. You are not allowed to "step" while you have the ball, i.e. you can't carry it and move on the court. It's highly skilled and as athletic as basketball, and although it's not meant to be a contact sport someone forgot to inform the Jamaican team of this aspect of the game. Australia are currently the world champions  but they seem to swap off with Zild and South Africa is coming up through the ranks. England, where it was first played, probably makes up number five position in the rankings worldwide. Sorry - probably more than you wanted to know, but I follow it (and play socially from time to time) so you got lumbered!
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Australian Rules FootballKnown as "Aerial Ping Pong" to non-afficionados. 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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In reply to:
Australian Rules Football
Known as "Aerial Ping Pong" to non-afficionados.
The funniest thing I ever read about it was back in the days when it was still called VFL, from the only place in the cosmos where the game is worshipped. A VFL history leaflet included the "information" that Gaelic Footbal was derived from VFL!
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You were pretty close to the mark , Faldage, except that the familiar diminutive for Australian Rules Football, which most fans just call football, is footy. Without getting too bogged down with the rules, here are a few comments in relation to the aspects that you mentioned. A ball may be passed from one player to another by kick or "hand-ball"; to execute the latter the player must punch the ball out of one hand with the other hand. If a player catches a kick which covers more than 10 metres and hasn't been touched by another player, he has "taken a mark" and he has the option of going back several metres behind the "man on the mark" - in which case play is suspended until he continues - or "playing on" immediately. Compared to the style of play in vogue say 30 years ago, there is much more use of the "play on" option and of hand-balls, resulting in a faster, more entertaining game. The strongholds of the sport have traditionally been the southern and western states of Australia (Victoria, South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania) with the other states favouring rugby. But both sports have crossed into each other's territories of late, with Victoria's state competition having been expanded and rationalized to form the "Australian Football League", although still with a preponderance of Victorian teams.
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...that Gaelic Football was derived from VFL!
One of the strangest codes of football I have seen is that played by Australia and Ireland in several international test series over the last few years. It's a blend of Gaelic football and Australian Rules - I can't remember if it has a name - and it combines aspects of both in an attempt to ensure that neither country gets a significant advantage. It's played with a round ball that can be kicked or handballed and has a curious scoring system that involves maximum points for putting the ball in a soccer-style net guarded by a goalie, less points for over the net but between two high posts and 1 point for outside the net and high posts but inside another smaller post.
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In reply to:
It's a blend of Gaelic football and Australian Rules - I can't remember if it has a name - and it combines aspects of both in an attempt to ensure that neither country gets a significant advantage.
May I ask, must one get smashed on an esoteric blend of Guinness and VB in order understand/enjoy this mutant?
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>have we established there is indeed a "once-only 'ou' " rule
Sounds plausible. [knowing wink emoticon]
On the subject of colonies. It is allowable, amongst consenting adults, to refer to the parts of Britian furthermost from the capital as the "provinces". I think, like colonies, in the right company, it isn't an insult, just an "in joke" amongst us provincial types. The main problem is finding the right company in which to use the term, otherwise the results can be painful! I note that "Antipodean" gets similar results!
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Thank you, Jo, for dragging this thread back to its rightful place ['grateful' emoticon]. Stop press! We have established a RULE. (Having said that, though, don't Brits also refer to soccer - ahem, football - as 'footy"?)
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In reply to:
I note that "Antipodean" gets similar results!
For us Kiwis, and most especially for me, living as I do here: Location: 39'39" South 176'52" East, the ayleur closest to being truly Antipodean is Juanmaria, not the Prisoners of Mother England who coined the phrase, heedless of the geographical innacuracies they lumbered it with. As to being offended, I'm not in the least troubled by the feeble efforts of bottom-dwelling Northerners to make themselves feel better than those of us (CK, Phyllis, stales, etc.) who live up here at the top of the world.
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was, I believe, a game called Camp. The rules varied slightly from town to town but basically two teams of approximately 10-15 players each would form, goals would be set up marked by the cast off garments of the players and the two teams would line up at the center of the field. A disinterested spectator would toss the ball between the two teams and endeavour to make his escape. Goals (called snotches or notches) were gained by running, but not throwing the ball through one's goals. If the ball was wrested from a players grasp his team lost a snotch. One was permitted to throw, but not hand the ball to a less harried teammate. The game was played to some previously agreed upon score, usually about 100 snotches. The ball was about the size of a fast pitch softball (12" circumference). If it was played with a ball the size of a soccer ball it was called Kicking Camp. If played with shoes on it was called Savage Camp.
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you know, all this input on various forms of football, soccer, rugby, footy, etc. makes it very clear to me now how (and why) MAD magazine came up with the game of 43-man squamish... http://www.squamish-net.org/Mad/index.htm
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WHen I was younger, MAD was my kinda magazine. I still sing the Mad words to various songs when they come up - e.g. the Egg Fu Young words to "Oh what a beautiful morning". Or the suggestions for spiffy new national anthems - "Daisy dotes and Dozy dotes and little Abu Dhabi". Spy vs Spy had me in stitches. The little guys running round the edges of the page. Their take on "The Sound of Music". It was several laughs a page.
Yet today it seems to lack something. I don't think the artists are of the same calibre, and it's been "cleaned up" to some extent.
What are your views - if you're interested.
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Isn't this the game played by gorgeous hunks wearing abbreviated shorts and cut-away, sleeveless tops? Or is everyone too polite to mention that? (I can see the realtionship with Camp. )
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>don't Brits also refer to soccer - ahem, football - as 'footy"?
We sure do. By the way, I see you've been following the "inverted commas" conversation. I see you prefer the "old one-two"! [private wink emoticon]
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Definite communication problem here, CK. A "yappie"? You obviously don't mean "yuppie" and I am grateful for being spared that insult. Could you mean "Japie" (pronounced YAH-pee)? In which case, shame on you! Japie usually denotes an unsophisticated simpleton, a sort of country bumpkin. Even if it's true it's really not nice of you to go broadcasting my failings all over the place. Of course, I admit there is a sense of "Japie" (used especially by coloureds - we have to say "so-called coloureds" these days) which just means an Afrikaner. (It's used in the same way as "boer" which literally means "farmer" so you can see a connection here!). Even that is somewhat pejorative, like calling somebody a dago or a mick or a polack. And besides, I don't strictly qualify because although I am fair-skinned my first language is English; well, sort of... the local unreasonable facsimile thereof. But the really baffling part to me is if that is what you meant, what made you deduce from my post that I was a Japie? As for the "missing permutation", I am totally perplexed. I was referring to the 28 SA doctors in your story who have apparently emigrated to NZ. (At least that's what I thought you said.) And SA has such a dearth of skilled people we can ill afford to supply the world with teachers, doctors, nurses (this is the latest drain; the UK came actively recruiting nurses last year) etc. Maybe I should just drop the subject I seem to be unintelligible and incapable of understanding others.
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>this is the latest drain; the UK came actively recruiting nurses last year
Yep I thought that was a bit strange. I don't know why anyone thinks that if we can't find a way of keeping our own nurses in the profession we should be any better at encouraging nurses trained abroad to stay in UK nursing, let alone stealing them from the country which provided their training (not only SA, I believe). Maybe you are right and I should just drop the subject.
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>As to being offended, I'm not in the least troubled by the feeble efforts of bottom-dwelling Northerners to make themselves feel better than those of us (CK, Phyllis, stales, etc.) who live up here at the top of the world.
That's what I mean about "consenting adults". We can all give as good as we get![running for bunker emoticon]
Regards
A Pom
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In reply to:
Definite communication problem here, CK.
As for the "missing permutation", I am totally perplexed. I was referring to the 28 SA doctors in your story who have apparently emigrated to NZ. (At least that's what I thought you said.) And SA has such a dearth of skilled people we can ill afford to supply the world with teachers, doctors, nurses (this is the latest drain; the UK came actively recruiting nurses last year) etc.
This I can clear up. It wasn't CK who mentioned the 28 doctors, I was I. So, you replied to him, but he hadn't written the inital comment - confusion was sure to follow!
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I intended no direct, personal insult Phyllis. It was obvious from your reply to MaxQ that you were from the Republic. The common slang for South Africans here is "japie" as you spell it (correctly, I presume) and "yappie" as I've seen it spelt. If we saw "japie" here, we would assume Japanese! We use the term the same way that we use Ozzie or Streiner and Kiwi - affectionate contempt. Especially after the last cricket series. I won't use it again here. I also assume your name ain't "van der Merwe". I knew that was an insult. It's certainly true that we only take your best. But from what we hear here, your best should be making tracks out of a sense of self-preservation. I know a number of South Africans living here, and they haven't had an easy time of it before they arrived. An academic colleague's 60-year-old sister was raped and sliced to death in her own home outside Cape Town a year ago. Anyway, enough! Originally I thought you were from Zambia or Zimbabwe, but your post earlier showed that you were identifying with the Republic. Relatively simple deduction! Anyway, it's good to have you on the board. {Jackie's namaste emoticon]
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We sure do. By the way, I see you've been following the "inverted commas" conversation. I see you prefer the "old one-two"! [private wink emoticon]
I sure do, Jo, hehehe... That was purely intentional. ['no typos here" emoticon]
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tsuwm informs: you know, all this input on various forms of football, soccer, rugby, footy, etc. makes it very clear to me now how (and why) MAD magazine came up with the game of 43-man squamish...
Rather partial here to the grandbaby, Quidditch (viz. Harry Potter) ['knowing-look-to-jmh (is-this-faux-emoticon-thing-going-too-far?)' emoticon]
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>['knowing-look-to-jmh (is-this-faux-emoticon-thing-going-too-far?)' emoticon]
Along the lines of "you can never be too thin or too rich". I think you can never take a joke too far, although I have noticed that people tend to avoid me. Can't imagine why!
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 31
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 31 |
affectionate contempt I really like that expression! And I was just pretending to be offended. It was a thin pretext for educating everyone on "japie" (yep, that is the correct spelling) and arming them with another ethnic epithet.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 31
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 31 |
Yes, I realised after sending the post that I had responded to the wrong person. But the sent post is the modern equivalent of the spent arrow - you can't get it back no matter how much you regret it. My apologies for being so scatty.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13 |
Daisy dotes? Shouldn't that be Mairsy dotes?
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Daisy dotes? Shouldn't that be Mairsy dotes?Probably. Blame Al's Hammer Disease. I do, all the time, when I can remember it.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
Anna inserts (parenthetically) is-this-faux-emoticon-thing-going-too-far?
::nods & shrugs::
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
[CK asks my opinion thereof]
I haven't bought an issue in thirty-some years; on the other hand, there is a terrific CD-ROM available containing reams of the early stuff, including the rules (rules? we don't need no stinkin' rules!) for 43-man squamish. Don Martin was my favorite artist of the "usual gang of idiots".
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
tsuwm eulogises: Don Martin was my favorite artist of the "usual gang of idiots".I agree - I still use "One fine day ..." in conversation, although it's generally meaningless to my interlocutors, and when I was drawing political cartoons I used it mercilessly to lampoon our political "leaders". The problem was, some of them knew where it came from and loved it! 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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