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I was tempted to post this review of a book about truth, lies and "bull----", entitled "On Bull----", in Maverick's Tanka thread [ Tanka Tango to Go] which is dipping into the truth, but I thought this post would interrupt the flow of the Tanka* -- so I'm posting it here. BTW the Tanka-in-progress includes this beautiful connecting link which Zed has just posted: Truth's diamond never corrodes
But refracts to each their hueBetween Truth and Lies, An Unprintable UbiquityNew York Times, February 14, 2005 "The bull artist, on the other hand, cares nothing for truth or falsehood. The only thing that matters to him is "getting away with what he says," Mr. Frankfurt writes. An advertiser or a politician or talk show host given to [bull] "does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it," he writes. "He pays no attention to it at all." And this makes him, Mr. Frankfurt says, potentially more harmful than any liar, because any culture and he means this culture rife with [bull] is one in danger of rejecting "the possibility of knowing how things truly are." It follows that any form of political argument or intellectual analysis or commercial appeal is only as legitimate, and true, as it is persuasive. There is no other court of appeal. The reader is left to imagine a culture in which institutions, leaders, events, ethics feel improvised and lacking in substance. "All that is solid," as Marx once wrote, "melts into air." Mr. Frankfurt is an unlikely slinger of barnyard expletives." http://snipurl.com/ctmi* I didn't want to tinka with the Tanka. :)
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Carpal Tunnel
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interesting post.... BUT
1--what does this have to do with Q & A about words?
there are many Topics to post under, (misc comes to mind) were this could be posted. but why post it here?--
(as i recall, EATS SHOOTS and LEAVES (a very ontopic book for this BB) was discussed here in Q & A, but tangentally (in the root, hog or die thread) --a discussion ABOUT THE BOOK started in Misc, as i recall.)
2--or i am i wrong? do you intend to discuss explitives, vulgar words, and which words the NYTimes (or other newspapers, here in US and elsewhere) will and won't print?
that could be an interesting discussion (but perhaps hard to navigate, what with **** and @!#% being used to stand for words!)
we aren't prudes here, but like the NYTimes, we try to keep this site adult, but 'Family/School' friendly, and generaly, keep the use of vulgar language to a minimum.
it might be difficult to discuss the use of vulgar words, (even if there is an interest!) and to be honest, there is an interest. several thread, over the years have become filled with inuendo.. (if not outright naughtyness) but again, NOT IN Q & A about words..
3--This book is rather political in nature, and politcs is an other topic that we tend to avoid. (along with religion). there are many BB that are set up to discuss topics like politics and religion, but these topics can easily become volitale.. many people are passionate about them (and passion as we know, is a BURNing sensation.)
You seem to indicate that it is meant to provoke a discussion on the nature of truth. (in politics, advertizing, etc) BUT it isn't clear. and if it is, this is a philosophical discussion, (we've had many here!) but, again, not they are not here in Q & A about words.
have your read the book? can you offer more than the review? we have had many topic (in Q & A about words) about words or the use of a specific word, as used in a book . is there a word you wish to discuss?
It would be ENTIRELY appropriate to discuss a single word or phrase from a book to explore the way it is used or misused, but i don't know how interesting it would be to discuss a book review.
Why don't you buy the book, and using post-its, annotate, and bring back notes, and specific examples of words, and how they are used (or misused!) to discuss here? feel free to site specific examples you found in the book (that were perhaps first used else where) .
i haven't read the book, but perhaps Mr. Frankfurt presents many words, whose use might be fodder for interesting discussions.
but i don't see much to discuss about a book review (about a book i have not read) Or is there a specific word, that is used (or misused) in the review that you wanted us to take note of?
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Looks like I goofed again, Of Troy.
I thought the term "barnyard expletives" was an interesting term. [That's why I highlighted it in the extract.] I also thought the topic was timely given the fact that the last 3 segments of the Tanka Maverick started are dipping into these waters. [I didn't start the Tanka, Of Troy, so it's safe for you to check it out. :) ]
Hey, does it hurt to promote the new poetic art form Maverick has introduced to us, at least as an aside? As I explained at the top of this post, I didn't want to interrupt the flow of the Tanka by shoe-horning my post into the middle of it. That would have been rude.
I make it a practice never to be rude to anyone, anymore, Of Troy, whatever the provocation. One does not expect rudeness in return for politeness, but life isn't always a bowl of cherries, is it? Sometimes we just have to put up with the stuff we can't change. [My mom always used to say "Suffer in silence" everytime I had a temper tantrum. But I was just a kid. You're a grown-up, Of Troy. And your talents are wasted, I'm afraid, dumping on me.]
re "EAT SHOOTS AND LEAVES" thread. Not surprised you mentioned that. You want me to EAT my words after you SHOOTS me down in the hope that Plutarch LEAVES, not just this thread but this forum completely. :)
Hey, just funnin' with ya, Of Troy. I know you want me to hang around so you'll have someone who won't fight back to dump on.
Not sure that's fair to everyone else, Of Troy. But, you know best, of course.
BTW Of Troy, I don't like "bull----" any more than you do, but the fact is our culture is knee deep in it as the author of "On Bull----" studiously explains.
I just thought it would be nice to get knee deep in something else for a change -- like the truth, for instance. Where's the harm in that, Of Troy? Do you find anything objectionable in Zed's contribution to the truth in the Tanka? Or, is it just my contribution to the truth you object to?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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i thought i made it clear previously, WHAT I WANT is: for you to not tell me what i think or feel. but you again post
Of Troy,...it's safe for you to check it out. ]
You want me to EAT my words...
I know you want me to hang around...
YOU don't know what i want. Even it seems, when i clearly state my wants. PLEASE STOP POSTING statements STATING YOUR OPINIONS about my wants, my thoughts, or my feelings. YOU ARE NOT PRIVY to my thoughts unless I have directly expressed them. I SAID NOTHING about WHAT you want--rather I QUESTIONED your thoughts and reasoning--BECAUSE I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND YOUR PURPOSE. I asked for CLARIFICATION. I DID NOT (in this thread) ASK YOU TO LEAVE. I DID NOT (in this thread) SAY I WANTED YOU TO STAY. I DID NOT (in this thread or anywhere)INDICATE I AM AFRAID TO OPEN THREADS. (or that i think certain thread are safe or unsafe) YOUR staying or leaving was not discussed. I discussed the text of your post. I DID NOT state "plutarch THINKS this" or "Plutarch THINKS that" or "plutarch KNOWS this" or Plutarch DOESN'T KNOW that" or "plutarch IS AFRAID" or not afraid. I ASKED A LOT OF QUESTIONS. I asked questions because i don't know what you think (or what you were thinking of when you made your post). I asked why you posted a snip from a book review in Q & A. I tried to make it clear, i didn't understand the purpose of the POST in Q & A about words topic. I asked over a half dozen Questions. I didn't TELL you what you thought.. i don't know what you were thinking and i asked questions to gain understanding. I didn't object to your contribution, I QUESTIONED the topic, (and i admit, i still don't understand what the topic is! but it seemed to me to be a philospical discussion on the nature of truth) and, if that is the topic, why the topic (if it is a philosophical discussion on truth) is being posted in the Q & A about words area.(again, your words seem to indicate that you want to discuss something of a philosophical nature: I just thought it would be nice to get knee deep in something else for a change -- like the truth, for instance.but you also answered "barnyard expletives's" is an interesing term.(or pair of words) FINE. in your opening post, you state: I also thought the topic was timely given the fact that the last 3 segments of the Tanka Maverick started are dipping into these waters.but your first post indicates, by way of a quote, In reply to:
BTW the Tanka-in-progress includes this beautiful connecting link which Zed has just posted:
Truth's diamond never corrodes
But refracts to each their hue
i understand that to mean that Tanka thread has become interesting because is it discussing the nature of truth--
Now i am more confused. Do you consider truth to be a barnyard explitive? is there a connection between truth and the term barnyard explitives? a discussion of the connection might be interesting. (but perhaps, again, not appropriate to Q & A about words.)
could you please make the connection clearer, because right now its seems a pretty muddy connection.
there certainly isn't a clear (to me) connection between the two ideas in your first post. (truth and barnyard explitives)
as i said in my first reply: You seem to indicate that it is meant to provoke a discussion on the nature of truth. (in politics, advertizing, etc) BUT it isn't clear. and if it is, this is a philosophical discussion --since the book (in the snip of the book review you included) seems to be about bullsh*t --which is a barnyard term for lying.
i don't understand.
do you want to discuss truth vs. lies? or truth vs barnyard explitivees?
if the first, a philosophical discussion, not a Question (or answer) about words. and perhaps would be better placed elsewhere on this BB.
If the second, I don't understand the connection. could you explain it. --becasue I DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE THINKING.
And the Tanka thread, (interesting or not, as you chose) IS NOT asking questions about words, nor is it in Q & A about words.
Many topics are discussed on this BB. but as a general rule, this AREA (i.e., Q & A about Words) is used to discuss just that, Q & A about WORDS.
Off topics, --and there are many of them-- are posted in other parts of the forum. some off topics are lively discussions, some are ignored.
there are many under-utilized 'topics'. several of these have been 'shanghi'ed' for off topics --that is not word related --disucssions.
and topics started here (about Q & A about words) have gone off topic. BUT the general practice is not to START off topics here.
You are free to ignore the general accepted practice. You can behave anyway you like.
I dislike you now, and will continue to dislike you if you continue to behave rudely towards me, by making posts stating your opinions AND LABELing them as mine. I think that is rude.
i also dislike that you (after several years of posting here) have failed to notice the 'general accepted practices' and are surprised when they are discussed.
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I made a pledge, openly, over 3 months ago not to get involved in any feuding, whatever the provocation. I have honored that pledge.
I can assure you I have no intention, none at all, of departing from this practice.
I extend my hand to you in peace, once again, Of Troy. I hope you will take it. Not for my sake. Or for even for your own sake. But for the sake of the Board in general.
No-one enjoys reading these diatribes, Of Troy. It's not that anyone favors either one of us in all of this pointless feuding. It's because the feuding itself is an insult to the Board.
You don't like me, Of Troy. That is clear enough. But I have no reason to dislike you. If I have offended you in any way over the past many months, the offense was unintended. Nonetheless, I apologize for any unintended offense, Of Troy.
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Carpal Tunnel
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could you please answer these questions--
what is the connection between truth and 'barnyard explitives'?
and
What does a discussion about the nature of truth (and/or truth vs bullsh*t, i.e.Lies) have to do with the Questions (and answers) about Words?
Am i correct in thinking the subject is philosophical?
Is Truth vs lies the subject you would like to discuss?
or am i wrong?
do you want to discuss the term 'barnyard explitives?
and
Why do you think a philisophical discussion belongs under the Topic Q & A about Words, and not under some other topic?
i asked these questions (perhaps not as clearly) in my first post, and again, again,in my second post.
perhaps i was not clear enough, either time.
do you understand my questions? i am asking you to clarify what you think, because i do not understand the topic is, and i can not discuss what i don't understand.
at no point in this thread did i ask you to leave.
perhaps you might take some time to explain how my asking questions, asking you to clarifiy your thoughts, and to clarify what is is you would like to discuss, and my stating my feelings is a diatribe or feuding.
my feeling is, once again, it is rude for you, (or anyone) to post statement that claim to know what i am thinking, or feeling. I retain the absolute right to express my thoughts and feelings.
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I retain the absolute right to express my thoughts and feelings.
No-one doubts that, Of Troy, least of all me.
I have no interest, none at all, in suppressing your thoughts, or interpreting them to your disadvantage, or in discouraging them. If you thought I was doing any of that, I wasn't. But I apologize in any case so we can put this behind us.
If you don't approve of where I make my posts, Of Troy, perhaps you should direct your complaints through a neutral party, like Jackie. This will allow both of us to carry on in peace without disrupting the peace of others.
In the past you have indicated that you are not interested in reading my posts. That's probably a good approach as well.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Oh, no--don't be dragging me into this. And that is not a request.
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Hey, Jackie, I said someone "neutral".
If no-one "neutral" is available, Of Troy can send her complaint to me directly in a PM. Then no-one else will have to get involved at all. That suits me just fine.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Helen, I agree with you. I've posed similar comments and received no direct reply; just obfuscation. I've pretty much decided it's a waste of time to contest and, while I mourn the many interesting folks who have left this board because of a single malfeaser, all we can do is hope for better times, or more sophisticated software (!).
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