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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2004
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Punctuation: a simple topic, but one that branches into so many directions. Recently a teacher criticized me for placing "incorrect" punctuation in a sentence similar to the following:
Kierkegaard composed the phrase "truth is subjectivity".
Okay, I totally forget what the subject of the sentence was, so I improvised. The teacher not only placed a thick red arrow guiding the period one character to the left, but she also drew a glaring red asterisk next to it. Seriously, is it even wrong? I'm aware that Americans have adopted her method as the "proper" pronunciation rule, but:
1) It doesn't make sense. The period ends the sentence, not the phrase. As a matter of fact, this use of grammar implies that the period exists as part of the phrase, no matter where in the sentence the phrase is written. From this use of grammar, one might infer the following sentence is correct.
"Truth is subjectivity." is a phrase Kierkegaard used in his books on existentialism.
Obviously it's not.
2) Don't the British still use "my" style of punctuation?
By the way, the same argument goes for parenthetical statements as well (I often punctuate such statements thusly). (However, if the whole sentence is a phrase, I usually punctuate it like this.)
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I'm with you, Ani, but I'm afraid we're wrong.
stupid, isn't it?
formerly known as etaoin...
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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My understanding is that the reason for putting the period inside the quotes has to do with structural mechanics of old time printing. the period haging loos outside the closing quote would tend to break off or some such foolishness. My own standard is to put the punctuation inside or outside the quotes depending on whether it's part of whats being quoted. E.g., Did you say "I'm leaving"? or I asked him, "are you going to the store?"
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The question mark and the exclamation point in American English punctuation are punctuated in the senses faldage shows above, which are based on the meaning of delivery. The period goes inside quotation marks as does the comma. I don't know anything at all about British punctuation rules other than rhubarb once noted that the last two of items in a series are never set off with commas from each other, whereas in American punctuation the choice is up to the writer:
British: "Apples, oranges, grapes and pickles will suffice."
American: (Either the above or...) "Apples, oranges, grapes, and pickles will suffice."
We've discussed before here how punctuation is a byproduct of the period in which you're living. Punctuation conventions do change. You really do have to train your eye to accept punctuation conventions if your mind at first insists upon reasoning out punctuation that is contrary to the convention. Recently I've been rereading The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter and have had to suppress the red pen urge to correct McCullers' punctuation. But now that I'm several chapters into the book, I've trained my eye to see sentences punctuated the way she wrote them. It's a fairly easy task.
My kids just went through several weeks of work on identifying comma splices (in a nutshell: commas placed where they don't belong) and fused sentences (two or more sentences strung one after the other without any punctuation). Yesterday I graded about twenty papers and was happy to see that all except four students grasped the concepts. The four who didn't still can't hear complete throughts in their heads and will find acceptable as complete sentences dependent clauses such as:
"When the computer crashed."
We have to work hard on improving reading of sentences because the state writing examiners do mark writing samples down if standard punctuation is lacking. However, I don't think these examiners would mark an essay down for placing a period outside of quotation marks. That would appear to be quibbling in my view. But for formal papers for which students had ample time and opportunity for several drafts, I would expect to find the period inside quotation marks.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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for some reason, I feel better about it, knowing Fald's explanation, but I wonder at the difference between periods and question marks/exclamation marks?
it all just seems so arbitrary...
formerly known as etaoin...
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veteran
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veteran
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So there you have it Aniami, everyone is right but your teacher. In a logical world a sentence that ended in a parenthetical statement or a quotation would end like this...
.).
or .".
or ?".
or ?)?
or .).
or...(you get the point.).
The only excuse for this not being so is comprehension and brevity.
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veteran
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veteran
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It doesn't make sense. The period ends the sentence, not the phrase.
I'm with you, A-L.
I refuse to do anything that doesn't make sense regardless of the convention, unless I am likely to suffer some conspicuous penalty for it [like receiving a scornful arrow and surly red asterisk on an otherwise unblemished piece of work].
If you had committed an error not so conspicuously disrespectful of authority [in particular, her authority], your teacher's censure would have been far less emotive, AnimiaL. [One can forgive sins of ignorance or neglect, but not sins of presumption.]
It's my guess that your teacher has perceived an independent streak in you, AnimiaL, which she believes it is her solemn duty to expunge for the betterment of mankind.
Your teacher wants to bring you, not your period, to heel, AnimiaL.
Don't let her streak you out. But don't lose any marks over it either. :)
That independent streak will mark you as a leader in the future, AnimiaL -- whatever marks it may cost you nowadays in the classroom.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Ruh roh, Aniam; look what this site gives as examples:
Quotation Marks
Also known as: Inverted Commas or Speech marks
The use of Quotation Marks are to show:
A quotation
i.e.: He said: "We will close early on Friday."
Announcement
i.e.: Notices stating "Silence" are often found in libraries
Titles
i.e.: This page of the web site is known as "Skills Development"
Direct Speech
i.e.: The speaker said, "The comma is used to introduce direct speech." http://www.crazycolour.com/os/punctuation.shtmlAnd, from Purdue University:
Put commas and periods within closing quotation marks, except when a parenthetical reference follows the quotation.
He said, "I may forget your name, but I never remember a face."
History is stained with blood spilled in the name of "civilization."
Mullen, criticizing the apparent inaction, writes, "Donahue's policy was to do nothing" (27). http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_quote.htmlWell, I guess that settles it for me. My memory was so vague on what was correct, that I fear I have vacillated between that and what makes sense, which is your version: The period ends the sentence, not the phrase. I believe it was Faldage who tried to straighten me out on that a long time ago, and I persisted in trying to kick over the traces. Judging by the ".edu" in the address, I'm guessing this is a teacher or professor who agrees with  Wordwind : The rules of punctuation are not static; they have changed throughout the years and will continue to change. What once might have been considered improper punctuation may now be considered correct. The rules of punctuation are created and maintained by writers to help make their prose more effective, and their exact meaning changes over time... http://www.stpt.usf.edu/pms/intro.htmlHowsomever, I reckon the period-inside-the-quotation-marks one hasn't, yet. Sigh... Maybe we could start a campaign!
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 95 |
The only rule I really don't agree with is
The English word nuance comes from a Middle French word meaning "shades of color."
AND
History is stained with blood spilled in the name of "civilization."
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_quote.html
The rest are a bit more logical. Sticking a period both inside the quotation and outside of the quotation looks silly.
Campaign? That's a great idea. Let's brainstorm for some campaign slogans.
Punks pushing punctually for practical punctuality
(or simply Punctual Punks for Punctuality)
Colin's colon coalition!
We won't stand for this period!
As in "we won't stand for this period" (before the end of the quotation) and also "we won't stand for this... no matter what!"
Man, I love being cheesy.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Well, somebody pass the crackers!
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