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If one can see past the "postwar game" commentary in this passage [below], there is an interesting term "north and south nod" which is captured in the headline "Nodding is not planning". "General Garner said the administration's mistakes had made it easier for the insurgency to take hold. "John Abizaid was the only one who really had his head in the postwar game," General Garner said, referring to the general who served as General Franks's deputy and eventually his successor. "The Bush administration did not. Condi Rice did not. Doug Feith didn't. You could go brief them, but you never saw any initiative come of them. You just kind of got a north and south nod. And so it ends with so many tragic things." http://mathewgross.com/blog/archives/000846.htmlOne can nod in assent, or one can nod off. One can also nod when that is the safest thing to do. But the "north and south nod" is really a shrug. It's an "I-agree-with-you" nod, but "don't-expect-me-to-stick-my-neck-out" up and down motion. You know for certain you are getting a "north and south nod" if the nodder's eyes are glazed over.
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I hate to be dense here, plutarch, but is the north and south nod just a slow up and down movement? It's an interesting term, even if I've misunderstood it. Thanks for bringing it up.
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is the north and south nod just a slow up and down movement?
I'm not quite sure either, Wordwind. But I think it's not so much the character of the nod itself [altho it's probably shallow - figuratively and literally - as well as slow and phlegmatic] but the fact that it is not accompanied by any words of encouragement, or by any follow-up action.
For me, the key to the "north and south nod" is in this bit:
You could go brief them, but you never saw any initiative come of them. You just kind of got a north and south nod.
The "north and south nod" is not a true nod of assent because it leaves the petitioner with the uneasy feeling that there is no conviction in the nod. Of course, the proof of that instinctive unease comes later when absolutely nothing happens to lend substance to the nod.
It reminds me of the expression "to damn with faint praise". The "north and south nod" damns with faint assent.
The "north and south nod" is the tell-tale sign of someone who is 'just going through the motions', in this particular case, by submitting to the ritual of the "briefing".
The nod can, in fact, serve as a polite signal that the "ritual" is over. The petitioner goes away harboring some hope that their argument was successful, and the nodder goes away without having actually said anything for which they can be held accountable later.
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I checked the web and found only one other usage of the expression, “north and south nod”. Here, from the marinatedministries.org web site, is what I found:
I wanted to give to my child some meaningful, yet, productive information so I said, "sit down child, I have to give a meaningful speech." My child sat down and I began to teach. These are the Do's and the Don'ts of life, [sic] after finishing I asked, "Do you understand?" The North and South nod of the head said you did well, Dad.
Here the usage seems to indicate that the person nodding, in addition to understanding what was said, agrees with what was said too. There is, of course, a possibility that the author of the above story isn’t sure of what the expression really means either.
Physically speaking, if one considers the head to have a north and a south, the top of the head would logically be north, and the chin would be south. A subdued up and down nod would not, in my mind, be aptly described by the phrase “north and south”. An up and down nod with exaggerated movement, i.e. the head going higher up and lower down than a normal nod, would be more in keeping with the “north and south” description. Perhaps the north and south nod is more indicative of blank agreement without understanding, or perhaps understanding with mocking agreement.
If the description “north and south” is descendant from the times of US Civil War, perhaps “north and south” originally referred to one with dual sympathies, i.e. one who was non-committal. This might explain the “non-committal” element found in General Garner’s comments.
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An up and down nod with exaggerated movement, i.e. the head going higher up and lower down than a normal nod, would be more in keeping with the “north and south” description
What you say makes sense, Dgeigh. Also, I agree your new example is not consonant with my interpretation.
Of course, it is quite possible that the expression "north and south nod" has a separate, coded meaning for the military, or for General Garner who is quoted in the story, in particular.
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Are you sure they aren't talking about the up&down head nods that people give when listening. It doesn't really give assent just let you know they hear what you are saying.
It's like a visual interpretation of when somebody repeats, "uh-hum, uh-hum" when you're talking.
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The north and south nod is familiar to all government workers who have given a briefing when the facts that you have to provide are not the facts that are wanted.
It is also familiar to anyone in a bureaucracy such as a management hierarchy. The north and south nod is a condescending nonverbal expression of disdain; it says, when the hell is this guy gonna shut up so I can do what I was gonna do anyway? It's a kiss of death for any meaningful discussion of the issues.
TEd
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when we drove down to Pintung last year in Taiwan, there was a sign that went Sorth...
that was enough of confusion...
ax
Play Chinese Squabble at www.chinesesquabble.com
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The north and south nod is a condescending nonverbal expression of disdainWhile I agree it is disdainful, TEd Rem, I'm not sure anyone would want to be disdainful to a General. So at some levels it is merely dismissive. re: "Play Chinese Squabble at www.chinesesquabble.com": Shouldn't people have to pay rent for repeated billboard exposure like that? It's not that I have anything against "Chinese Squabble", whatever that is, but how do you refuse someone promoting "Ukraine Ucher"? Or Chinese Qumquat? In fact, I have a slogan of my own I would love to promote. 
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Are you sure they aren't talking about the up&down head nods that people give when listening. It doesn't really give assent just let you know they hear what you are saying. - this seems an interesting track to me. Now just picture somebody first moving their head up, then down - and compare this with the opposite. I can see different amounts of enthusiasm in these two responses.
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>I'm not sure anyone would want to be disdainful to a General.
Me, me! Over here. And I actually was sort of once. I had to go to a meeting in the Pentagon a few years back and ended up lost in SecDef row, where the average officer grade is flag rank. I had gone into an office block to ask directions and as I was leaving a guy in front of me stood and waited for me to open the door for him. He had either three or four stars, and I calmly opened the door, went through and let it swing shut behind me. For all I know or care that guy is still waiting for someone to massage his ego and open the door for him like a good little toady.
I was raised in the tradition that purple-suiters work for brown-suiters. Blue-suiters are AF, white-suiters are Navy, green-suiters are Army, purple-suiters are generic military, while brown-suiters are civilians.
I once worked for a really despicable blue-suiter who knew absolutely nothing about our organization, its ways of work, its mores, nothing, and he was intent on changing all of them so he could leave his mark on the organization when he rotated out two years hence. The animosity with the brown-suiters increased to the point where he called in me and the managers who worked with me and ordered us to respect him. Needless to say we all saluted smartly and moved out without respecting him at all.
He ended up being riffed as a major, even though he had previously won the Lace Sijan Award, one of the most prestigious awards available to a company-grade officer in the AF. So far as I know he was the only recipient of the Sijan award not to make colonel. A richly deserved fate in this man's case.
TEd
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This phrase reminds me of the Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where the first 3 panels are of the two of them sitting immobile on the side of the bed, staring at Mom with rapt attention as she lectures. In the last panel, Mom has just said, "Do you understand?", and Calvin talks out of the side of mouth to Hobbes: "Sounds like she must be finally winding down--start nodding". And wow, you sure can learn something every day. I went to Max's page for some shortcuts to phrase origin sites, and guess what, I got sidetracked. Was intrigued by the title 'not-so-famous last words'. He(?) has citations for many of the words, but not for this one:
ZYZZYXDONTA a snail with characters the extreme opposite of Aaadonta. I wonder if he put that in just to see if people were paying attention; I can't imagine that that's true. Here's the home page; last words are P. 18: http://members.aol.com/gulfhigh2/words.html
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Now just picture somebody first moving their head up, then down - and compare this with the opposite. I can see different amounts of enthusiasm in these two responses.
I've seen the side-to-side nod. In most of those cases, it was somebody who had decided they would disagree with whatever was said, before it was said, and were just waiting to speak, instead of actually listening.
The first words out of their mouths is usually, "yes, but..." and they proceed to tell you how you're wrong.
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I've seen the side-to-side nod
Is there a word for the side-to-side 'nod', I wonder. It can't include the word "nod" because nod means to move one's head "up and down", not sideways.
"shaking" one's head comes close, but is "shaking" necessarily a side to side motion?
When you look at the definition of "nod" in A-H, "To lower and raise the head quickly", you can't help wondering if the words "north and south" are redundant. A nod is always north and south so a "north and south nod" is really no different than any other nod.
Perhaps it just sounds more intriguing -- which is apt, perhaps, because intrigue is what is suggested in the General's usage.
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must be east to west, no?
formerly known as etaoin...
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must be east to west, no?
Depends on whether you're an Anglican or a Catholic.
In football and basketball, ball carriers use what is known as a "head fake". They look in one direction, and dart in the other, throwing the defender off balance momentarily.
I guess a head motion signaling dissent would be an "east and west head shake", represented graphically thus:
<0> or <0><0> or <0><0><0> depending on the degree of disagreement.
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"head fake"
i.e. Feint and counter-feint.
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Feint and counter-feintYes, that's it, Musick. For the faint of heart, a head feint is as close as they get to speaking their mind. A "counter-feint" gets too close to telling the truth. Here's what a "counter-feint" looks like. >0<No-one can ever figure it out.
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wondering if the words "north and south" are redundant - this is why I suspect this expression is used to specify the order of the movements: first up, then down.
A propos side to side nod: in Greece, this means "yes"!
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When I went on my cycling holiday to Ireland some years ago, I noticed Irish men who would walk by me and give a little head movement to one side or the other, almost a jerk. At first I thought they were making a silent comment of disapprobation on my cycling wear or my obviously being an American. It took me at least a week to realize that this was a silent form of greeting, a sort of hello shake of the head.
TEd
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a sort of hello shake of the head
In our jurisdiction, when a gowned barrister leaves the courtroom while a case is in progress before a judge or judges, he stops before the double doors before leaving, turns and nods with his entire body as a sign of deference and regret for any distraction caused by his exit.
When the proceedings appear not quite so solemn, the nod is merely a dropping of the head, or, more precisely, a south nod.
I sometimes nod to people in the street when they make eye contact with me, even if I don't know them. I suppose I think they might know me and I don't want to be remote. This nod is also a south nod, a nod of respect, or recognition, or salutation, or perhaps all three at once.
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