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Joined: Jan 2001
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear wow: I was thinking about your challenge about relative abilities of men vs women to tolerate pain. In thinking about different kinds of pain, suddenly I remembered dental pain, which ought to be equal for both men and women. So we need to have a dentist from the days before dental anaesthesia became so marvelous, who could tell us about his experiences with both sexes. That gets me off the hook.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
I've wondered about the term 'pain tolerance'. What does it mean? Here are some possibilities:
1. Pain that can be withstood before unconsciousness takes over. Presumably empirical studies (even if only obserrvational rather than empirical) can be carried out, and may have been, already. Any thoughts?
2. Subjective - individual's willingness to 'carry on' in a painful situation. This, however, need not tell us anything about the individual's physiology ("women have higher pain tolerance levels - it comes form hormones"-style mewage) but from cultutral and other conditioning. For instance, if men gave birth, and suckled, wouldn't it be true to say that women would suffer from the feelings of jealousy, and alienation, that fathers often go through - no longer being the most important person in the household, not able to create that 'mystical' mother-child bond that seems to occur so regularly, and so on. Further, if men were privy to such a bond (and yes, the 'magic' of giving birth and seeing something come alive that has grown inside you for all these months), what's to say that, no matter how painful, they wouldn't want to go through it again?
IMO, until we have a few real life Tiresias', the entire question is a moot one - particularly when it comes to the pain of childbirth and 'my pain is bigger than your pain' comparisons.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Pain that can be withstood before unconsciousness takes over.Presumably empirical studies (even if only observational rather than empirical)...?
Shanks -- Could you elucidate the two (including your parenthetical) phrases in red? I am not sure I understand how you distinguish "observational" and "empirical."
The notion of pain tolerance has always seemed odd to me. At face value, it belongs to the same category of speech addressed yesterday in the Empathy thread. It seems to me that since "subjective states" (a troubling term) are immeasurable as such, that they are necessarily incommensurable, as well. So that pain tolerance must refer to some empirically quantifiable response to an empirically quantifiable stimulus. Perhaps wwh could tell us--if I'm on the mark--what these might be. If my conjecture is right, while such measures seem useful, I don't see how they could, or should be expected to supplant the "subjective" report of "subjective" suffering--or a care giver's considered judgment thereof.
As to your second points on maternity, I will withhold any remarks here except to say, as a point of interest and not bawdiness, that men are capable of producing milk and, to some extent, at least, and suckling infants. (Or so I have read--Dr. Bill?). The subject of maternity might make an interesting non-word thread.
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Joined: Mar 2000
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
David asked for elucidation:
Presumably empirical studies (even if only observational rather than empirical)...?
I hang my head in shame. It should have read: even if only observational rather than experimental.
Hope that clarifies the matter.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 428
addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 428 |
My wife has, in the past two years given birth, had gallstones, and passed a kidney stone (while pregnant!). She says (and from observation of her reactions to each, I concur) that the gallstones were the worst.
Flatlander
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Joined: Mar 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
My wife has, in the past two years given birth, had gallstones, and passed a kidney stone (while pregnant!). She says (and from observation of her reactions to each, I concur) that the gallstones were the worst.
I for one will be happy to take her word for it, poor thing.
Please convey our sympathies.
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