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When a fast food chain went broke because name "Sambo" was widely judged a racial slur, how can "mumbo-jumbo" be less than doubly un-PC? It did Sambo's little good to point out
that "Little Black Sambo" was Indian, not African.
Which reminds me: How many of us put "ghee" on our pancakes?
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From the Internet:
"OFFENSIVE SNACKS OF YORE
Sambo's restaurant was weird all around, however. As you can see from the picture above, there was nothing more than some happy Indian lad eating pancakes with a tiger by his side. But Sambo's roots in the story "Little Black Sambo" made it too sensitive of a character to last. The book, which featured a nappy haired black boy with stereotyped features, and parents named Black Mumbo and Black Jumbo, was offensive enough to eventually spell doom for the restaurant chain. Of course, blacks have been no strangers from offensive foods, with grinning characters from Cream of Wheat, Uncle Ben, and Aunt Jemima still happily serving white folks breakfast to this day."
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Well, Bill, you're right in the historical sense, but I can't help thinking that if black faces or figures on advertising is un-PC, then you're cutting a huge swathe through the marketing potential in many countries where a large percentage of the population, the US included, are not WASP. I think it's how it's portrayed that matters, surely? Having Paul Newman's face grinning at me from a jar of dressing shouldn't be any "better" (or more PC) than having, say, Lenny Henry's face doing the same thing.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Both uncle Ben, and aunt jemimma (and "columbia, in the beginning of movies, and Betty Crocker) have all been updated..
Uncle ben now looks like a chef, not a cook, and aunt Jemimma is younger, thinner and lighter!
while they do exhibbit some racial sterotyping, for too long a time in US, being a cook was a good job (often the best job) blacks could hope to get-and there are enough 'white faces' hawking food, its not as if its a purely racial sterotype.. we have mama leonne, and Francesca Rinaldi, and mrs. buttersworth, as well at the old standby, betty crocker.then there are 'faceless women', too, Mrs. Pauls, and Sara lee.
no one thinks the worse of 'whites' for selling food..
part of the problems of sambo's was there was a book, (or song? no i am sure it was a book) about 'little black sambo' and yes, he was indian, but, he looked more african, (broad nose, nappy hair.. and he was black sambo.
as for him actually being indian ... ghee was the only hint. (and in the book, that was anglisized to 'golden butter')
(and dr bill you asked if any one put ghee on there pancakes, no.. but i have used clarified butter on crepes!)
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Dear of troy: in the story book, the dentral figure of the
tiger, and the bazaar alos located story in India. I think his father was shown wearing a turban. Nothing to suggest
Africa, which does not have a monopoly on the word black.
There are even so-called black Irish.(just to tease you.)
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Carpal Tunnel
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Little purple slippers with upturned toes....
I loved the story.
Huge tiger pancakes.
How wonderful!!!
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Carpal Tunnel
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There are even so-called black Irish.(just to tease you.)Yeahbut®, the "Black Irish", Dr. Bill, are so-called because they trace their ancestry back to the influx of Spanish Moors centuries ago, who were actually of black African descent, so there is a touch of African blood there. Eugene O'Neill's family were considered "Black Irish." Today the "Black Irish" have features strikingly darker than the usual fairer Celtic look, but that's about the only difference. Here's a picture of a young Eugene O'Neill to see an illustration: http://www.irishfilm.net/Documentary/EO.html
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Pooh-Bah
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The Black Irish are a myth from your side of the pond, Juan. Both the negro connection and the Spanish armada connection are a bit of a crock. The term is never used in Ireland or Irish literature. I googled this one to make sure that what I thought was generally correct. Just google "black Irish" ...
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I have heard the term "Black Singers" for the Welsh? anybody got anything about that?
formerly known as etaoin...
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Here's a site I found, Cap, that offers some of the theories. The O'Neill family was from County Tyrone, and the biographies I read that mentioned this usually pointed to the Moors story: >10) What are black Irish and shanty Irish? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This question has come up fairly regularly on the newsgroup but has never been resolved definitively. Neither "black" or "shanty" are used much in Ireland. They seem to be mainly used in America. "Shanty Irish" was used to describe the poorest of the poor Irish immigrants, the kind who ended up in shanty town (the origin of the word "shanty" is not known, but it might come from the Irish "sean tí", meaning "old house"). Today "shanty" in the States is a derogatory term for people who in Ireland might be known as culchies but the people so described need not necessarily be of Irish descent. "Lace curtain Irish" could be as poor as the Shanty Irish but they had notions of being more respectable. They were called that because they would put up lace curtains for appearances sake, even in a shanty town. Thus the term is far from being a compliment. { Thanks for clarification to Neil Cosgrove. } "Black Irish" is often taken to mean Irish people with dark hair and eyes. One romantic story is that they are the descendants of shipwrecked sailors of the Spanish Armada. Unfortunately for the story, it is very unlikely that enough of the sailors survived for their genes to be in the population visible today. A variation on this theme says they are descended from Spanish Moors who traded with people on the west coast of Ireland. Another explanation is that it's common in Irish to give people nicknames based on their hair, such as Seamus dubh and "black Irish" is just a carryover of this into English. Some people say that the "black Irish" were the original inhabitants of the island and all the rest were just blow-ins. One other interpretation is that "black Irish" refers to the descendants of Irish slaves taken to the Caribbean island of Montserrat during Cromwell's time. The descendants of these slaves and black slaves from Africa live there to this day. The surprising thing is that they still speak with an Irish accent!< http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cultures/irish-faq/part08/section-10.htmlAnd here is an engrossingly detailed and thorough investigation and discussion of all aspects of the myth: http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/
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in my family, i am the 'black sheep'-or odd man out, what ever you want to call it--i am naturally blond (yeah, i help it out now, but i was born blond!)
all of my siblings (and my parents) have dark hair-- my father in ireland, was described as having the n word type hair(there was no insult in the use of that word in ireland)-- his hair was black and kinky. two of my siblings have kinky (not curly, kinky!) hair. (the other 2 just have dark curly hair) 3 of my siblings have olive toned skin (very pale olive, but olive none the less, and they do tan.)
on my mothers side, there is also kinky hair, but its called 'lamb's wool' hair, as it is very blond. there is some evidence that the angles (of Anglo/Saxon) had this kinky, 'lamb's wool' hair (curly hair is a dominant gene)
ireland is a island, but the celts got there, and so did the vikings, and so did the romans, so who knows maybe some moors came too, after being made to feel unwelcome in spain.
(spain is a not uncommon last name in ireland.. and last name often reflect place names)
the irish would have welcomed them, (any enemy of england is a friend of ireland, sort of thinking)
and most of the 'moors' were not negro's, but rather berber's, a total different ethnic group,found along the north coast of africa..they are swarthier than most europeans, but they are not black in the common meaning of that word.
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Well, what were the ancient Egyptians? Were they negroes or not? Couldn't we easily tell by some kind of genetic testing of the mummies? This is a puzzle that has bothered me to death. I sure would like to know once and for all.
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Dear WW: I rmemeber reading that one of the Egyptian dynasties was founded by people living way up the Nile,
and thus of "African " origin. I don't think I could find reference to that quickly. Just got summoned to lunch.
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up nile (south from egypt) would be current day Ethiopia, and the people of ethiopia are not exclusively negro's. (it hard to tell what they are(originaly where), since arab, and indians have traded with and settle in the area since before recorded history!
negro's, are found in centeral africa, and they had cities, (such as timbucktue, (what ever its spelling), and some groups had a written language (but a crude writing system, about on par with what the irish used before they adapted the western alphabet) the zulu's, an other negro group, were agressive brave warriors, with sophisticated kinship, and political groups, that 'united' a good deal of central africa (a territory extending from the congo to the edge of south africa) for a variety of reasons (many to do with tropical diseases, and lack of animals suitable to domestication,) they had a more nomadic life style than say the romans, but there kingdom was larger..
nowdays, its common for american blacks to claim that the egyptians (and much of there knowledge was the basis for greek and roman advancements.) were 'blacks'. but there is a really black culture, (that is largely unknown) and there is no real proof - (the images of the egyptians made of themselves don't look like negro's, but rather like the current day people of egypt and ethiopia..) (and there images are clear enough, that doctors have seen evidence (later proven, by examination of mummies) that the egyptians suffered from polio..they portrayed infirmities pretty acurately, no reason to think they wouldn't do the same for hair, noses and skin tone.
the head waters of nile, (lake victory) is in the heart of africa, an area the is/was inhabitated exclusively by negro's. but egypt never extended to the head waters.. its present day borders are not to different from its classicial boarders (at least in terms of the land along the nile..) they did battle with the ethiopians about the boarder..and it did move over time.. (and of course, ancient maps are no where near as accurate as current day ones.. even landmarks such as 'waterfall/cateracts move with time!
at several points in egyptina history, the dynasties were headed by people of ethiopia, and other times by the berber group that is more common to north africa. but ther doesn't seem to have been a mass influx of ethiopians when they ruled egypt... (just as england had the georges' as kings, but didn't become a germanic country)
(but what ever they are, they are different cultural and language group from the semites, who make up the jewish and non jewish population of the near east.)
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Pooh-Bah
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Thank you for the memory flash. Your post brought back the image of the muslim women of the Upper (ie. southern) Nile. Tall, beautiful, black women with proud, erect posture. They wore the all-covering black burka but it was of the sheerest material they could find. and underneath they wore fabrics printed with bold graphics or huge flowers in vivid pinks and oranges and yellows. Absolutely stunning.
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I have heard the term "Black Singers" for the Welsh?
I think black singers from Wales are just that - people who are black of skin and hale from Wales, like Shirley Bassey (my, what a voice). Presumably descended from immigrants from Africa or America [ie Afro-American] in the last 100 years or so (not before... I used to like the Spanish Armada theory because my mum's family are Cornish - black Cornish - meaning they have olive skin, and I loved the romantic idea of Spanish sailors being rescued... *sigh*)
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journeyman
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journeyman
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Of course there is the other explanation for the "black Irish" or the dark ones... That they have a bit of the sea in them from their anscestors is true, but those anscestors were seals... silkies, to be exact. Those are part seal and part human. They come ashore every once in a while and shed their skins to catch some sun... and sometimes, they themselves were caught when somone captured their skin.
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old hand
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old hand
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Selkies, I think, rather than silkies.
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Carpal Tunnel
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The name is preserved in a couple of folk tunes I know as "Silkie," though it doesn't really matter, given the way vowels move.  Tross, Silkies also came on land and fathered children, no? My husband, Faldage, refers to himself as a black Scot but I haven't asked him about the Silkie angle yet.
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old hand
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>The name is preserved in a couple of folk tunes I know as "Silkie,
I must confess, I am just using the spelling favoured by an SF author, Anne McCaffrey, resident in Ireland, who wrote SF stories featuring these creatures. She always spelled it with an e, so I just ape her. Would a blue-blooded s(i)(e)lkie be a royal seal?
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i've always seen it spelled 'silkies' but selkies is a little closer to how i say it..
has anyone seen the secret of roan inish'? or under the glacier (that's an icelandic film!)- both feature silkies and the silkie myths.. and its not just men who are silkies, more often than not, it is women who fall in love with a fisherman, and follow him back to shore, and come to live with him (where would a male seal have a chance to meet a woman?)
and many stories involve fisherman being saved by their wifes, who in storms, went back into the sea to save their beloved husbands. (and some stories are tragic, of men who steal the silkies skin, and keep them trapped on shore.. and later, die at sea, since their wifes cannot put on there skin and rescue them..)
the secret of roan inish is available in most 'blockbuster' or other large chains, sometimes its in the childrens section.. (it works on several levels, and kids can enjoy it as a fairy tale like movie.)
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My understanding of the Black Irish/Scots (the Scots were just Irish who left for Caledonia about the time the Romans were leaving Britain*) is that the line of descent came from the eastern Mediterranean. The same people who were ancestors to the Phoenicians had migrated across North Africa and left behind Carthaginians, came up through Spain leaving folks there and going on to Ireland. These were not, as I remember, Celts but were the people who lived in Ireland when the Celts moved in their own selves. That's the way I have it tucked away in my tiny little brain.
*This may be one of the reasons the Picts started moving in on civilized Britain causing the Britons, who had lost their Roman protectors, to call on the Angles, Saxons and Jutes for help, thus setting up the circumstances that left us with this lovely, complex, bastard of a language that has brought us all together in this little haven we call AWADtalk
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Pooh-Bah
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When I saw the expression Black Singers for Welsh the mental image I got was of a choir of coal miners. Like the Men of the Deep from Nova Scotia.
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journeyman
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journeyman
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Has anyone seen Secret of Roan Inish?
Aye... That's one of my favorite movies. Every time it comes on cable I find I can't not watch it.
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