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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I'm getting really fed up with the automatic grammar checker which is part of Microsoft Word. I know I could turn it off but it does spot all those those repeated words that I'm so fond of. It is always telling me to replace "which" with "that".
It's driving me mad! Is it really so bad to say "which" in a sentence? Is it a local variation or some kind of Bill Gates house rule? Do us Brits say which more often than US English speakers or am I on my own here?
I think I may need some advice from Mr Bingley. Any thoughts?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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while we wait for Mr. B, here is what alt.usage.english has to say on the matter:
In "The family that prays together stays together", the clause
"that prays together" is called a RESTRICTIVE CLAUSE because it
restricts the main statement to a limited class of family. In
"The family, which is the basic unit of human society, is
weakening", "which ... society" is called a NONRESTRICTIVE CLAUSE
because it makes an additional assertion about the family without
restricting the main statement.
It is generally agreed that nonrestrictive clauses should be
set off by commas; restrictive clauses, not. Nonrestrictive
clauses are now nearly always introduced by "which" or "who"
(although "that" was common in earlier centuries). Fowler
encourages us to introduce restrictive clauses with "that"; but this
is not a binding rule (although some copy-editors do go on "which
hunts"), and indeed is not possible if a preposition is to precede
the relative pronoun. "Which" seem to have more "weight" than
"that"; the weight often just adds starch, but it can be of use
when the relative pronoun is separated from the antecedent: "This
is the only book in my personal library which I haven't read."
Often, too, euphony favours one or the other.
Object relative pronouns can be omitted altogether ("the book
that I read" or "the book I read"); in standard English, subject
relative pronouns cannot be omitted, although in some varieties
of informal spoken English, they are ("There's a man came into
the office the other day").
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Well said, tsuwm, and your reference to Saint Fowler most appropriate. I turned the bloody grammar checker off, as it has a different sense (or no sense) of euphony.
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Posts: 18
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 18 |
Thank you for your very useful comments. I still feel that there must be more to it. It seems more natural for me to say "This is the book which I told you about" instead of "This is the book that I told you about" and "Here is the house which we looked at yesterday" instead of "Here is the house that we looked at yesterday". Could there be a formal/informal distinction here as well? These few examples and some others I have thought of lead me to guess that (in American English at least) "which" is freely used in restrictive clauses in informal speech.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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ammelah,
given your two examples, I would say "that", which is of no help whatsoever in answering your question but merely points out the subjectiveness of it all.
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old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 1,004 |
Jo
Your post is full of 'saying' and 'speaking' words. The Microsoft grammar checker, on the other hand, is working to relatively 'strict' written English rules - though you are able, allegedly, to vary the rigidity with which it applies them. Herein, IMO, lies a crucial difference. If you use the word 'which' in speech a lot, instead of 'that', you are probably committing no solecism. In writing, however, In the interest of being inoffensive to readers of business correspondence, the Microsoft thingy probably becomes a touch obsessive/compulsive about these matters.
For what it's worth, I tend to ignore the grammar checker.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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Carpal Tunnel
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I don't have anything to add to tsuwm's admirable exposition, but I do think it illustrates a general point. Somebody makes a recommendation for stylistic improvement or points out a difference in formal written prose and more casual writing or speaking and it suddenly becomes a dreaded solecism to be avoided on all occasions, the linguistic equivalent of farting loudly in church. I would say if whatever style or usage guide you consult goes against your own gut feeling, ignore it. As for Microsoft's, I turned it off long ago. I suppose Bill Gates's employees must know something about computer languages, but they seem to know nothing about human ones.
Bingley
Bingley
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>alt.usage.english
Thanks tsuwm. I think this does relate to my usage of the word. I'm not so bothered about informal writing but I do like to know why the wretched machine is trying to alter my careful prose.
I ran your post through the grammar checker and it did not try to replace the "which" in "The family, which is the basic unit of human society, is weakening." I suspect that all it does is look to see if the clause is set off with commas, if not, it recommends that the user considers replacing "which" with "that".
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
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>Jo, Your post is full of 'saying' and 'speaking' words.
Don't I know it! I wouldn't dream of letting a grammar checker near my e-mails to friends, family and y'all. I don't even go near Aenigma these days!
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393 |
You can customize it. Roughly: Tools, Options, Grammar tab, Settings, Relative Clauses checkbox. Turn that off and it stops pissing about with that and which. You can probably amuse yourself turning off lots of other things too.
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