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Trawling through a back issue of the delightful webzine Take Our Word For It, I came across this complaint contributed by a reader, together with Mike/Melanie’s joking response. Q: While I'm at it, would you please explain to your readers that gender is a matter of grammar. Sex is a different matter and is what you check in little boxes on government forms. A: Yes gender is a matter of grammar but sex... Isn't that how they have coal delivered in Cheltenham? (if non-UK, see thread on RP for this pronunciation  ) Sex is a wonderfully ambiguous word, with so many loaded connotations. It is perhaps worth noting in passing even a verbal use of the word, as in “sexing chicken”, with its elliptic sense of “separating chicken according to their sexual characteristics”. Gender seems to me a plainer term, unencumbered and simple. I was therefore puzzled by this curmudgeonly wisdom – it seems to me a useful term in common currency, important in that it strips out ambiguity for occasions when clarity is more vital than wit! Does anyone else have strong feelings about applied sex?  http://www.takeourword.com/Issue102.html#Curmudgeon's Corner
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>Sex is a wonderfully ambiguous word...
I'm going to disagree with you to this extent: this is what is known in the technical writing field as an "overloaded" term -- which means that it is just about impossible to use the word in anything but a jocular or pedantic (or hackneyed!) context.
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Dag nabbit Mav. It's a good thing you added that explanation as to what sexing chickens mean. I was about to cross the UK off the list of places that I would like to visit one day. Over here we let the chickens sex themselves. Well, there you go, tsuwm was right in one way. Jocularity is the order of the day when sex is brought into the conversation. Pedantic, however, I don't agree with. Minn. is definitely off my visit list if sex is discussed only in a pedantic context. Mind you, don't they have chickens there? And to answer your question...<Does anyone else have strong feelings about applied sex?>... it all depends upon where the sex is applied 
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Pedantic Sex: Masters & Johnson
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*it is just about impossible to use the word in anything but a jocular or pedantic (or hackneyed!) context
Technically speaking (or writing), indeed you're correct, tsuwm. But otherwise, I think you're failing to give "sex" due credit. Even if it is overvalued!
(I'm assuming in what follows that appending the word to others is acceptable practice, by the way. Correct me if I'm wrong)
First example that comes to mind - unfortunate in that it's an invented word - is "sexcrime", a bit of Orwellian newspeak. Not much jocularity, and quite a lot of bite, in that one.
"Sex slave" sounds ironic or jocular at first, but then goes a bit sour.
"Sexy" - definitely overloaded, and well detached from its original meaning. Or is it? Maybe we're not giving due credit to the diversity of the original meaning!
(starts getting quizzical looks from the audience)
Actually these are bound to be personal impressions, but that's maverick's point, isn't it? Those impressions can swing to extremes, and there are acres of interpretation between those extremes which can be weighted by context. Even if that context is a single word.
Great stuff! Exactly what the English language is all about, in my humble opinion.
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what the English language is all aboutYep, tend to agree with you FOAB (to render another non-sentence!) But I can't help notice this thread has more views than participants - a higher ratio of voyeurs at around 8:1 than say YART at 5:1. What does this tell us about AWADERS? Or is it just 'cause Jo's away sunning herself?
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(starts getting quizzical looks from the audience)Where's the emoticon mark-up for "quizzical look"???  --- mav, hope I didn't skew your stats. This really isn't a reply.
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Hmmmmm. I wonder what Masters & Johnson would have to say about that question mav? More voyeurs than participants.
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>what's the emoticon... for quizzical look?
I have no clue, he replied quizzically -- but this might work :-?
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>But I can't help notice this thread has more views than participants - a higher ratio of voyeurs at around 8:1 than say YART at 5:1. What does this tell us about AWADERS? < I was going to say that maybe we don't talk about sex with strangers, but then FishonaBike is the only stranger in this thread. ...someone restrain me before I start on the members and addicts...
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Over here we let the chickens sex themselves.
Regardless of whether you meant "themselves" or "one another", belM, if that's how your chickens behave I suspect that your roosters have an identity problem, not to mention their own frustrations.
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a higher ratio of voyeurs at around 8:1 than say YART at 5:1.
How did you suss the ratios out, mav ?
Lots of voyeurs is great stuff, really - means any postings to this thread are being viewed by more people who agree with everything that's being said.
Perhaps we should take the opportunity to advertise something!
Though that is a bit predictable coming under SEX in big letters.
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Were Masters & Johnson more voyeurs than participants?
:-?
(yes the emoticon does sort of work, tsuwm!)
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This really isn't a reply.
Sorry Anna, too late. You're a participant now!
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>But I can't help notice this thread has more views than participants - a higher ratio of voyeurs at around 8:1 than say YART at 5:1.< - Stand up and be counted ! I no longer mind to be counted among voyeurs, though. Isn't it just another word for spectator or observer? Created by those who missed the opportunity?
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suss the ratios out
Hi Fishy - just a quick look at the summary of hits and replies.
But let me restate the original question, stripped of its jocular notes. Does anyone agree that gender is a useful and appropriate word to describe someone's, well, gender, as sex is an overused word that carries too much baggage?
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..just another word for spectator or observer? Created by those who missed the opportunity?Yes - created by those who missed the opportunity to watch for those who missed the opportunity to participate! But if we all got up on the stage, there'd be no audience. So voyeurs all, hold your heads high - the players have no life without you!
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mav, you've probably guessed my opinion:
"Gender" is clearly less ambiguous, but it's also dry and colourless.
"Sex" is better any day!
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Getting this thread back up by getting down to the original question : If I correctly remember, the word "gender" was introduced in the context of fighting women's discrimination. Maybe soon we shall realize that this linguistic strategem did not help any, and return to the plain "sex". Remember the thread about minorities and their politically correct designation?
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this linguistic strategem did not help anyYou may have a point here, wsieber. I recently encountered a discussion on radio that mentioned the way PC language can itself be simlpy subverted. The example offered was the term challenged, originally intended to eliminate the negative connotations of insulting school yard phrases - yet now hurled about with exactly the same glee by monstrous spotty Kevins all over the place! "Oh, dear - Tracy's a bit challenged, yeah!" The point being made was that no PC dyke could hope to hold back the floodwaters of actual meaning - if the intention is to wound, a non-emotive phrase can be invested with just as much poison as an obviously acidic word. But I still find gender a useful term, even though I like sex in many other places - and is sex ever plain?
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wseiber, mav, couldn't agree more.
The point is that you can't force language down a particular path. Meaning comes from within. It's like when PC parents deny their children toy guns and swords; fifteen minutes later the farmer has become a commando, the combine harvester is an enemy-grinding machine and the farming implements have become an imaginative assortment of tactical arms.
Bless 'em!
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As I understand it sex was/is supposed to refer to the biological state of being male or female and gender was borrowed from linguistics to refer to that state's sociological consequences. I think using gender to refer to the biological state blurs a useful distinction, especially with regard to language where the gender of nouns in some languages (German was Mark Twain's famous example) may not reflect the (biological) sex.
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sociological consequences
Thanks for that, Bingley. It's a clear exposition - given me something to chew on.
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Brilliant, Bingley -
A well-reasoned and lucid argument for something I could only justify in terms of personal preferences.
I doff my (virtual) hat to you, sir!
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...someone restrain me before I start on the members and addicts
Heaven forfend that, in this context, you should start upon the members. (Where's the emoticon for tears in the eyes?)
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In reply to:
sex was/is supposed to refer to the biological state of being male or female
The only problem with this being that a chappie called John Donne, nearly 400 years ago, wrote a poem called "The Good Morrow" (I may misremember the name - it's been a long time), in which the word 'sex' was used as a verb - to engage in coitus, or copulate, asyou might say. Ever since then, unfortunately, it has been difficult to use it in reference to the biological state on its own, since most people instantly associate it with the biological state of play!
cheer
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400 years ago, eh, shanks?
Ah well, I suppose what's Donne is Donne.
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A story, possibly apocryphal, about the great metaphysical poet, is that after he and his wife fell out, he wrote with his finger on the frost coating his window:
John Donne
Anne Donne
Undone
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I'm an acting teacher, and I worked this summer with a trans-sexual actor, someone who has had facial surgery, hormones, but not the big "chop" yet. Her gender was female, her sex was male, though this was generally perceived as being off-limits in discussions. Other teachers on the course struggled with calling this person "she", mostly because they still connected with some very masculine aspects of her voice and body, though her mannerisms, clothing and name were extremely feminine. In this case, the term gender was very helpful.
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John Donne/Anne Donne/Undone
On the basis of previous performances by Donne, I think this may well not be apocryphal, shanks.
The man lived some!
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In this case, the term gender was very helpful.
Good point, enrique. Reiterates very clearly that the distinction between sex and gender is an important one.
But would your student have checked "male" or "female" on application forms that said Sex ? If this sounds flippant or rhetorical, it isn't meant to be. For, as you say, her sex was male. Of course, she could have written an appropriate comment at that point in the form and/or complained to whoever issued it. But there may have been good reasons for the form's issuer wanting to know the applicant's sex. Again, gender may be relevant in some cases; in fact, it may be more relevant, in that it will often relate to how the person filling out the form wishes to be identified. So should there be a separate area on the form in which gender is specified?
And should trans-sexuals be referred to as "he" or "she"? Probably by whichever term relates to their gender; but you could argue that's providing incomplete information. Is the missing information at all important or relevant to others?
In which case we need a word that relates to "he" & "she" as "Ms" relates to "Mrs", perhaps.
My point is that our language and society really has a way to go before it can handle trans-sexuality. Which is a bit ironic in that it isn't really something new.
Phew, I'm going for a nice cold drink after that..
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I'm an acting teacherA teacher of acting, or acting as a teacher (on a short-term basis presumably)?
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>I was going to say that maybe we don't talk about sex with strangers, but then FishonaBike is the only stranger in this thread. ...someone restrain me before I start on the members and addicts...
Back from sunning myself. Finally made it through to this thread (she said voyeuristically Mav, seeking urgent reviving alcohol).
Only, I think is Shona isn't a stranger any more - you'll need to look amongst the members (105 posts since 11th October - is that a record?!)
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seeking urgent reviving alcohol Internal or external? Welcome back Jo. I just love the thought of every visitor, whether contributor or voyeur, going to a string called SEX and hitting the Show All button.
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105 posts since 11th October - is that a record?!I don't know, Jo - but it's definitely a bit excessive! I'm going to try to be a bit more laid-back now I'm a member.  Famous last words.
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>>"I'm going to try to be a bit more laid-back now I'm a member"...and the sun shall rise in the West and Atlantis shall rise from the sea....
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I'm going to try to be a bit more laid-back now I'm a member.
...as in drop back a gear but keep pedalling, or freewheel completely?
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...and the sun shall rise in the West and Atlantis shall rise from the sea....
..and the Mediterranian shall dry out again, all fishes awading away
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...and the sun shall rise in the West and Atlantis shall rise from the sea....
..and the Mediterranean shall dry out again, all fishes awading away...and never again shall cabbages cause kings to break wind Great imagery bel, wsieber. A touch of W.H.Auden in there somewhere, methinks! I'm freewheeling, Marty. All the way down from the top of this mountain to the bottom of the sea...
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