|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Hyla (in ‘overuse of acronym’ thread) made the interesting comment:
Perhaps this stems from the fact the English has so many different pronunciations of letters, based on what they're next to, combined with, etc
So here’s your first challenge of the millynumb, peeps!
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to determine: how many combinations of letters are there in (more-or-less) standard English that can make the “sh” sound?
You have 7 days from now, with suitable prizes awarded according to complete whim…
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Shall we send our responses privately, mav?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
"She sells seashells down by the sea shore" was taught to us in Elocution Class way back in the 1930s and 40s to improve our diction. SHucks, just call up SOED CD and there's a hundred of them.  BTW is it just me or has diction totally dropped out of the skills required for singers? I rarely understand lyrics these days but any old recording by Bing, Dinah Shoe, any movie with Doris Day or Kathryn Grayon, Deanna Durbin and you can understand every word. It adds to the enjoyment to know what the singer is singing about, doncha think? wow
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Wow proclaims: and you can understand every word. It adds to the enjoyment to know what the singer is singing about, doncha think?You ever had to listen to Rap? Sometimes not understanding what they're saying is the only way of enjoying "music"! 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>I rarely understand lyrics these days but any old recording ... Now you are showing your age  . Isn't that a fundamental difference between any music pre-1960 and post-1960. I did happen to notice that when they did all those "best of the century" lists in 1999/2000, nearly all the songs which got to the top of the UK lists had intelligible lyrics Imagine(John Lennon), Bohemian Rhapsody(Queen), Angels(Robbie Williams) etc, mondegreens notwithstanding.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
You ever had to listen to Rap? asks Capital Kiwi.
Sure. But that's not music that's rhythmn.
wow
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
...all those "best of the century" lists in 1999/2000, nearly all the songs which got to the top of the UK lists had intelligible lyrics... Ahaaaaa, you see, there are a few musicians around. Indeed many singers today are understandable but I've found them mostly in musical theater (theatre for the Brits) where it is important to the flow of the play for the audience/listeners to be able to understand the lyrics. Come on, y'all, don't be shy, lemme have it! wow
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Well, how about Opera? I started going to the English National Opera because they always sing English translations of the Operas and found thatnI still couldn't understand the lyrics, added to which the sounds and rhythms were all wrong. I have gone back to listening to opera in the language in which it was written and making sure that I know the story line before I go in to the theatre (theater for wow ) It is the musical sound that is so wonderful - the lyrics are fairly crappy anyway, for the most part!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Well, how about Opera? ... still couldn't understand the lyrics,
Exactly what I mean ... new singers in all fields appear to give little or no attention to thier diction.
Old records of Caruso singing in Italian are very understandable to Italian speakers ... and the Great Ones (ie Three Tenors) of today have great diction in their native languages and they give a damned good try in English It may be accented English but it is decipherable. HOWEVER, younger singers in all areas just don't seem to care whether or not the lyric is understandable.
Since it's unlikely this rant will cause any change, I think it would be nice to have lyrics written inside the paper flyer they put in CDs.
Many years ago, she gummed, music counters in stores or in music stores you could buy booklets with the lyrics of all the new songs (and some oldies thrown in to fill out the pages) for a dime. Probably be a dollar now. Why don't they do it anymore, she ruminated.
[emoticon of grey haired old lady wearing glasses peering wistfully at the reader.]
wow
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
wow: younger singers in all areas just don't seem to care whether or not the lyric is understandable...
to who??!!
common that's not true of all modern music, besides half the fun of rap, hip-hop, Sprechgesang or whatever you want to call it is deciphering the lyrics. I know, CK doesn't want to understand (most) 'rap' but that's 'cause he doesn't know Mos Def or Pharcyde, .. yet! I've always enjoyed MC Solar although my French is not advanced enough to cope with his recitations, .. mind you his album has the lyrics included.
I'll toddle off to my CHalet now, SCHorl in hand, saying SCHwa on my sofa.(a desperate attempt to stick to the subject of the thead)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
I know, CK doesn't want to understand (most) 'rap' but that's 'cause he doesn't know Mos Def or Pharcyde, .. yet!
Or ever.
My nephew's in a rap band that's considered pretty "cool" in Auckland, but I feel about it the way my parents felt about the Beatles. I can acknowledge the ability without having to acknowledge quality. To me, it's just (c)rap.
Sorry, I like a tune. Like WOW, I like intellgible and intelligent lyrics, although I'm frequently disappointed by one or the other. As the man said, "Great video, shame about the song".
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
Genius comes in many forms. If Mozart had been born today he may have stuck to 'Classical' music, but Beethoven would be doing electronica with R.D. James, JM, Kose or the like, and CK wouldn't know he existed. I'll be the first to admit that 99% (if not all) of that which hits the charts is weary corporate crap, but there is some class, and its lurking in most bargain-bins at the record store round the corner. Patience is all you need. Mind you when living in Australia I saerched the stores for several hours and came home with one CD, ....the web was a savoir. Nevertheless music/the arts is one really good reason to live in Europe.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Nevertheless music/the arts is one really good reason to live in Europe.
Or just north of Boston, Mass
wow
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
the web was a savoir
Chercher l'artist?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
[quote]the web was a savoir
Chercher l'artist?[/geen]
As comebacks go, I'd rate that only faire.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Nevertheless music/the arts is one really good reason to live in Europe.
The arts, yes. Music, no.
Beethoven, I'm sure, would have appreciated our current ability to wind the volume up. His deafness was almost total towards the end, and he spent a good deal of time and even more money trying to develop louder pianos. He succeeded in his career by dint of some clever self-marketing, but he wouldn't have succeeded, regardless, had he not been a true genius. I've read a couple of biographies and that seems to be about all they agree on.
I doubt, though, if any of today's little musical wiggin-wonders would be able to achieve, deaf, what he managed to.
Trying to guess what might have happened had various long-dead people been alive today is one of the less fruitful exercises one can waste one's time on.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
In reply to:
I'll toddle off to my CHalet now, SCHorl in hand, saying SCHwa on my sofa.(a desperate attempt to stick to the subject of the thead)
that is the kind of action we need-- I am sure Mav had this "shhh" in mind-- and was no doubt thinking of Shona as ghoti--(all you GBS fans know this one i am sure...)
Jo--you mentioned you sometime were in touch with Shona-- do tell the fish out water we miss 'em.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
apropos fish, I think maverick had oceans (!) of other 'shhh' examples in mind.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
oceans of examples...
Indeed there are, and I did! You still have a few hours to try (and I must admit though not specified I had assumed people might be interested to try ransacking their brain pan rather than RAM)... either way,...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771 |
Fancy a glass of chardonnay, Seamus? The rationing commission surely shakes their heads with chagrin at the racial tensions in oceanic nations. "Schwa" finds no rational position in the aforementioned composition. S(h)orry.
{Added later}... I should have mentioned ~ Tricia feels passionate about these issues. And she thinks your champagne is delicious!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Thanks to all who partishipated! With apologies for flu-induced slow reply, here goes: The three leading entrants were as follows. Fiberbabe gave us: Fancy a glass of chardonnay, Seamus? The rationing commission surely shakes their heads with chagrin at the racial tensions in oceanic nations. "Schwa" finds no rational position in the aforementioned composition.... I should have mentioned ~ Tricia feels passionate about these issues. And she thinks your champagne is delicious!I would tend to discount Seamus as an imported name, of the kind that even now gives some native English speakers qualms about pronunciation; whereas chardonnay and champagne seem to have been more genuinely assimilated – after all, we could have chosen to bastardise the pronunciation to something like tcham-pain, but have accepted the sibilant alternative. So I would score it: ce oceanic cha chardonnay, chagrin, champagne ci racial, Tricia, delicious sh shakes, should, she si tensions sch schwa ss commission, passionate, issues su surely ti rationing, nations, rational, position, mentioned, composition belligerentyouth gave a good set, which I would slightly condense to: cea ocean ch chalet, chandelier ci technician sh shown, shadow s as in sure si lesion sch schwa, scholy (??) ss submission, intermission tion inertia, motion, contention Marty played a blinder with his shining examplesh: I appreciate the mission, even though it has put us under pressure. I was conscious of some tension, but, with the luxury of an internet-enabled machine and the oceans of information available, plus a dash of panache, I was sure that I could initiate a response. But after a while the task began to give me the schist. I felt quite nauseous, especially wondering how the fuchsia I could include 'stanchion'. Marty claims 17 in that paragraph – I would score it like this: ce oceans che panache chi stanchion, machine chs fuchsia cia especially, appreciate sci conscious sch schist se nauseous (??) si tension sh dash ss mission,pressure su sure ti initiate, information Marty remarked “I'm sure there'll be difference of opinion over some pronunciation” – I would be interested to know for example how everyone treats nauseous. Is it nor-se-us or perhaps naw-jeuss, or will you let him in with naw-shh-us? Personally I would have expected one of the first two as more common, tho’ am expecting to be corrected! Having started with my own list of around ten, I have had time to only run a brief reference, coming up with these examples in one reference* book: “There are no fewer than thirteen spellings for ‘sh’: shoe, sugar, issue, mansion, mission, nation, suspicion, ocean, conscious, chaperon, schist, fuchsia, and pshaw. “I therefore propose a composite : ce oceans
cha chaperon
che panache
ch stanchion, machine, especially, appreciate
chs fuchsia
ci racial, technician
psh pshaw
sci conscious
sch schist
s sure
si tension
sh dash
ss mission, issues
ssu pressure
su sure
ti initiate, informationI include the ‘cha’ and ‘che’ as different since the latter functions with a silent vowel, rather than a sounded vowel that clearly changes the preceding letter. If you have any challenges, comments or other suggestions you think need adding, feel free to post them here! (The book goes on to add, BTW, that “an old bit of doggerel for foreign students advises: Beware of heard ,a dreadful word
That looks like beard and sounds like bird ,
And dead : it’s said like bed , not bead – For goodness’ sake, don’t call it deed!” ) I’ll pojzt the conteshtants’ preshies shortly… *I can thoroughly recommend this book, both as cracking read and good reference, if you have not come across it already: The Story of EnglishRobert McCrum, with William Cran and Robert McNeil Faber & Faber, 1986. ISBN: 0 571 13828 4
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
I've since consulted a book on Oxford English after and it spoke of 8 official different spellings which are pronounced 'sh', though this did include any foreign ones. I guess some of the afore mentioned were double..
'su' same as 's' - sure
'che' - panache same as 'ch'- machine
Anyways, that was great poser Mav!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
a great poser mavYou could be right, b-y But I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, mav, even though I can't completely agree your final list. For instance, "Mission" and "Tension" are identical usages. The double "s" in the first is a function of the preceding vowel, which should have its pronounciation altered if there were only one "s". The bit that gives the "SH2 sound is the "si-". The same argument is true for "pressure" and "sure", I think. (although I can see other arguments that contradict what I have claimed, in that instance.) And you CERTAINLY CANNOT be allowed to have "sure" in as an example of both "s" and "su" !!!  Apart from that, it's an excellent list! Many thanks for it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
I have to agree that I would say naw-shh-us for nauseous.
I should stop reading this board when I'm at school, while my Oxford Dictionary of Canadian English is at home, because I can't really give you the "official" Canadian pronunciation (whatever that may be worth!).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
I can't completely agree your final listGood! A visit here without learning anything but bloody recipes will be a dull day. And yes, sweetie-darling-sweetie, once an actor, always an actor, I sur-pose Yep: the repetition of the ‘s’ sound was a simple blooper of cut’n’pasting – shorry. You say: "Mission" and "Tension" are identical usages. The double "s" in the first is a function of the preceding vowel, which should have its pronounciation altered if there were only one "s". The bit that gives the "SH” sound is the "si-".Leaving pronouns aside , is this true? What about the reason for why we pronounce missing completely differently to mission? Wouldn’t your suggestion imply a pronunciation more like “mis-shon” or even “mis-she-on”? Tell me more.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
Thanks for the link. I hadn't read the article before but I know the author, though down here in Catholic Bavaria the Süddeutsche Zeitung is preferred. Funny, Herr Schirrmacher seems to have taken something else away from Ray Kurzweil's latest spot of technical arrogance than I. I will happily admit that it was an intriguing read, but I am by no means basing 'our' future round it. Ray created so many clauses in his prophesies, that he seemed to just reinforce that the future doesn't exist.
As for Frank's thoughts on Europe, well, it certainly contains a grain of truth, though I dare say that many Europeans have not lost sight of the importance of good ol' fashioned learning (without digital help), as appose to them being Luddites. The digital myopia which has spread across America will, I hope, not find the same footing in Europe. Otherwise a dystopia of idiot savants, thinkers but non-thinkers, worse than those envisioned by Burgees, Bradbury or Orwell may be on the cards. I'd prefer to 'clumsily avoid the issue' than place all my hopes in it.
I'm currently reading a book entitled 'Unnatural Selection' which also contains lots of 'very slippery slopes' as Kurzweil would put it.
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,412
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
927
guests, and
4
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
