Wordsmith Talk		About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us

Active Topics

Active Posts

Unanswered Posts

Search

Advanced

You are not logged in. [Log In] Wordsmith Talk » Forums » General Topics » Miscellany » vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ Register User    Forum List        Calendar     Active Topics     Search     FAQ

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 > Topic Options #187550 - 11/01/09 10:04 AM vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ zmjezhd Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 2478 Loc: R'lyeh I was looking at Robert of Gloucester's Metrical Chronicle (ca.1330 CE), especially the earlier bits he cribbed from Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniæ. I was struck by this passage especially: Quote: Þo biþoȝte vortiger · mest of alle þinge · Hou he miȝte do quoyntelucost · þat he him sulf were king · Vor þat was alwei is þoȝt · & þeruore the monek he nom · To be king vor he was nyce · & ne couþe no wisdom · Then Vortigern understood; above all things; How he might carry out most cunningly; that he himself were king; For that was always his thought; and therefore he took the monk; to be king because he was foolish; and he knew not no wisdom; Here we have nice meaning 'foolish' and a full-blown double negative. Top #187553 - 11/01/09 02:36 PM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: zmjezhd] BranShea Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/23/06 Posts: 3764 Loc: Netherlands, the Hague þ that the character meaning th? Funny. : -) Top #187556 - 11/01/09 04:10 PM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: zmjezhd] AnnaStrophic Carpal Tunnel Registered: 03/15/00 Posts: 6489 Loc: lower upstate New York Love the thread title, Nuncle, and I'm sure Faldage will love the last line as much as I do. Thanks for posting it. Top #187566 - 11/01/09 09:16 PM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: zmjezhd] Buffalo Shrdlu Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/24/02 Posts: 6690 Loc: Vermont niþ Top #187569 - 11/02/09 12:42 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: zmjezhd] Jackie Carpal Tunnel Registered: 03/15/00 Posts: 10393 Loc: Louisville, Kentucky But can we count it as a full-blown double negative when 'no' in the modernized version clearly equals 'any'? Top #187573 - 11/02/09 05:59 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Jackie] Faldage Carpal Tunnel Registered: 12/01/00 Posts: 12534 Originally Posted By: Jackie But can we count it as a full-blown double negative when 'no' in the modernized version clearly equals 'any'? Sure we can. We replaced the no with the any because we got bullied into thinking negative harmony was wrong. Top #187603 - 11/02/09 10:04 PM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Faldage] Jackie Carpal Tunnel Registered: 03/15/00 Posts: 10393 Loc: Louisville, Kentucky negative harmony I love it! Edit: that means the notes below the tonic, right? Edited by Jackie (11/02/09 10:05 PM) Top #187615 - 11/03/09 06:23 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Jackie] Faldage Carpal Tunnel Registered: 12/01/00 Posts: 12534 I couldn't find any non-musical hits when I googled it but I can't believe I coined the term. Maybe Nuncle Z could help me out here. Top #187616 - 11/03/09 06:44 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Faldage] zmjezhd Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 2478 Loc: R'lyeh I couldn't find any non-musical hits when I googled it but I can't believe I coined the term. No help here. I knew what you meant by harmony. When I googled with the following, "negative harmony" -music -tone, this thread comes up midway down the first page of hits. Top #187629 - 11/03/09 08:58 PM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: zmjezhd] Faldage Carpal Tunnel Registered: 12/01/00 Posts: 12534 Well, I just guess I'll have to define it my own self: Negative harmony is the requirement that if a verb is negated in a sentence then either the subject or the object or both must also be negated, Examples English - I ain't got no money Spanish - No hay nada 'There isn't nothing.' Russian - Я не знаю. Я ничего никогда не знаю. 'I don't know. I don't never know nothing.' Top #187631 - 11/03/09 09:55 PM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Faldage] latishya enthusiast Registered: 11/24/07 Posts: 387 Loc: कहीं &... Originally Posted By: Faldage Well, I just guess I'll have to define it my own self: Negative harmony is the requirement that if a verb is negated in a sentence then either the subject or the object or both must also be negated, Examples English - I ain't got no money Spanish - No hay nada 'There isn't nothing.' Russian - &#1071; &#1085;&#1077; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1102;. &#1071; &#1085;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1075;&#1086; &#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1076;&#1072; &#1085;&#1077; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1102;. 'I don't know. I don't never know nothing.' So the French "ne ... pas" would be another example? Top #187632 - 11/03/09 11:05 PM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Faldage] Jackie Carpal Tunnel Registered: 03/15/00 Posts: 10393 Loc: Louisville, Kentucky I can't believe I coined the term Well, apparently you did--congratulations! And you are perfectly entitled to define it yourself, which you did exactly in accordance with what I thought you meant! Top #187635 - 11/04/09 01:02 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: latishya] zmjezhd Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 2478 Loc: R'lyeh So the French "ne ... pas" would be another example? I'll let Faldo answer the question as it's his term, but I must address the French constructions: pas < Latin passus 'step'; just like rien < res 'thing'. Basically a positive word becoming a negative one. Good is bad, up is down, etc. Top #187636 - 11/04/09 01:40 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: zmjezhd] latishya enthusiast Registered: 11/24/07 Posts: 387 Loc: कहीं &... Originally Posted By: zmjezhd So the French "ne ... pas" would be another example? I'll let Faldo answer the question as it's his term, but I must address the French constructions: pas < Latin passus 'step'; just like rien < res 'thing'. Basically a positive word becoming a negative one. Good is bad, up is down, etc. sorry i am a little confused. i was asking not about the etymology of pas but if the French use of two negative elements is similar to the other examples. from the little french I know I believe that both "ne" and "pas" are negatives now, so that would be a 'double negative', no? I think i am getting beyond my ability to understand or express here. Top #187638 - 11/04/09 02:18 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: latishya] zmjezhd Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 2478 Loc: R'lyeh i was asking not about the etymology of pas but if the French use of two negative elements is similar to the other examples. from the little french I know I believe that both "ne" and "pas" are negatives now, so that would be a 'double negative', no? Yes, today they are a double negative. I was just rhapsodizing on their etymologies. Pas started out as a non-negative. Top #187640 - 11/04/09 02:56 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: zmjezhd] latishya enthusiast Registered: 11/24/07 Posts: 387 Loc: कहीं &... Originally Posted By: zmjezhd i was asking not about the etymology of pas but if the French use of two negative elements is similar to the other examples. from the little french I know I believe that both "ne" and "pas" are negatives now, so that would be a 'double negative', no? Yes, today they are a double negative. I was just rhapsodizing on their etymologies. Pas started out as a non-negative. Thank you. I appreciate the clarification. Top #187642 - 11/04/09 06:48 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: zmjezhd] Faldage Carpal Tunnel Registered: 12/01/00 Posts: 12534 Originally Posted By: zmjezhd Pas started out as a non-negative. Which, of course, is all the peevologist proponents of the etymological fallacy need to claim it's not an example of negative harmony. Speaking of negative harmony. surely there must be a Proper Linguistic Term for it. It's not like it isn't a feature of many languages. Top #187650 - 11/04/09 10:28 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Faldage] zmjezhd Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 2478 Loc: R'lyeh Proper Linguistic Term Sure, how about negative concord or multiple negation? See Wikipedia entry for double negative or The cameleontic nature of French ni: Negative coordination in a negative concord language). Top #187723 - 11/10/09 10:18 PM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Faldage] Jackie Carpal Tunnel Registered: 03/15/00 Posts: 10393 Loc: Louisville, Kentucky It's not like it isn't a feature of many languages. Top #187726 - 11/11/09 06:25 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Jackie] Faldage Carpal Tunnel Registered: 12/01/00 Posts: 12534 A) I thought I'd posted this a week ago, but: D'oh! Negative concord! Of course! and 2) Originally Posted By: Jackie It's not like it isn't a feature of many languages. That's not quite the same thing. Yeah, there's two negatives in there but they're not supporting each other. It's like the difference between a) I couldn't fail to disagree with you less. and ii) I don't like to have to kill nobody without they ain't no chance of no gold in it for me. Top #187751 - 11/11/09 10:39 PM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Faldage] Jackie Carpal Tunnel Registered: 03/15/00 Posts: 10393 Loc: Louisville, Kentucky Good gravy--I actually understood ii! Top #187754 - 11/12/09 06:23 AM Re: vor þe tonge hit chaungeþ [Re: Jackie] Faldage Carpal Tunnel Registered: 12/01/00 Posts: 12534 Originally Posted By: Jackie Good gravy--I actually understood ii! Yup. The ungrammatical multiple negative is clearer than the grammatical multiple negative. Take that, doomsayers of linguistic decline! Top Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 > Previous Topic Index Next Topic Preview Hop to: General Topics ------   Information and announcements   Q&A about words   Wordplay and fun   Words and languages in schools   Miscellany   Weekly Themes   Looking for (writers, speakers, ...) (Old) Weekly themes. (have been consolidated into a single forum above) ------   Words from medicine   Beheading words   Meta-words   Words from classical mythology   Animal Safari   Words with unusual etymologies   Eponyms or words derived from people's names.   Loanwords from German   English as a global language Print Topic Switch to Threaded Mode View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM Add to your Watched Users View posts View profile Send a PM View homepage Add to your Watched Users View posts Forum Stats 7256 Members 16 Forums 12812 Topics 189754 Posts Max Online: 853 @ 10/23/07 11:39 AM Who's Online 1 registered (zmjezhd), 28 Guests and 38 Spiders online. Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod Newest Members Alan, jincy crow, aml, Goodspeaker, W1343 7256 Registered Users Top Posters wwh 13858 Faldage 12533 Jackie 10393 tsuwm 9577 Buffalo Shrdlu 6690 AnnaStrophic 6489 Wordwind 6296 of troy 5400 maverick 4683 WhitmanO'Neill 4189 March Su M Tu W Th F Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31

Board Rules · Mark all read Default StyleBlackNTanDrabGooG_v2infopopSlatesnowsunny_dropshadowthebluesTouch_Of_Greyubbthreadsubbthreads-dark Contact Us · Wordsmith Talk · Top

Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 2010 Wordsmith.org