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#99760 04/06/03 01:20 AM
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north american indians, lacked both iron and the wheel (thing that were available to natives of africa's gold coast and congo,) but north american indians (well the first ones encountered) frequently lived settled lives, (in Northeast, Long houses)and farmed, (corn, beans, squash and tobacco) There lives were not that different than the poorest of the poor tenent farmers of england..and in some ways were better.

Indigious American in Mexico and South America had highly evolved societies...(and these were well known about) and besides, at first, every one thought they were just in a remote part of asia. (just London was civilized, but one didn't expect the same ammenites if you were in northern scotland.)

The "taking of the land" in many cases was miscommunication.

the North american held all lands in common... they extended to the europeans the right to farm and hunt. They expected to share in the produce. europeans had different ideas.

and quickly, problems arose because of internal strife between different indian nations. european diseases killed off tribes and settlements, and other tribes tried to move and take over..

Indians didn't start out as savages.. but as time passed, and it became clearer that they were not asian, and not part of some great civilization (with a goverment and strong army behind them)the europeans (and second and third and fourht generation americans)became more and more cruel, and justified there actions because the indians were just savages.

There are fewer domesticated crops in tropical africa, and most african nations/groups had exposure to trade goods (arab traders started at the west coast- Dar es sallam, and were deep into what is present day east congo ages ago.) but central africa does not count among it riches large resources of copper, iron or tin. compared to the berbers and "moors" encounted in north africa, the central africans lived very differently. (and while shakespear's moor is portrayed as black, most of north africa's inhabitants are not much 'blacker' than souther italians, greeks, or arabs--but the blacks of central africa are negroes. )

There are very real reasons that America was "forested" and africa had "jungle".


#99761 04/06/03 08:35 AM
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>There are very real reasons that America was "forested" and africa had "jungle".


And, as yet, you have presented no evidence that the reason was anything other than the very different physical nature of the land. According to M-W, the word"jungle" didn't enter English until 1776, which, if true, destroys your elaborate "propaganda" argument, and implies that the reason the Nth American forests weren't called jungles was because the word didn't exist in English at the time. Sometimes, a cigar really is just a rolled up tobacco leaf


#99762 04/06/03 09:35 AM
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In reply to:

arab traders started at the west coast- Dar es sallam, and were deep into what is present day east congo ages ago.)


To which west coast of Africa are you referring, of troy? Dar es Salaam is on the east coast in Tanzania last time my kids sang the African map-reading song...


#99763 04/06/03 10:22 AM
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I must admit to having observed the trend of this thread with amused bemusement. The word "jungle" didn't enter the language until the 1700s when the British began to stay in India rather than just visit. It was probably brought back by one or more of the officers of the HEIC to describe the dense, um, jungles of India. As has been stated above, the word comes directly from Hindi (or anyway one of the Indian languages; there are so many to choose from!) and ultimately from Sanskrit.

Interestingly enough (well, it interests me, anyway), the word "jungle" doesn't appear to have been applied to African forests until comparatively recently. Certainly books I've read (from the Stanley, Schweizer, Livingstone era) refer to "forest", "bush", "coppice", "spinney", "copse" and all the usual English terms for collections of trees and shrubs. And most of those people had a healthy respect for the indigenous people.

Kipling, on the other hand, did use it. In relation to Indian forests exclusively; and he also had a healthy respect for both the, ah, jungle and its inhabitants, no matter how irritatingly jingoistic and condescending he could be at other times.

So I don't really think that the propaganda theory can be borne out.

- Pfranz

#99764 04/06/03 10:59 AM
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>So I don't really think that the propaganda theory can be borne out.

- Pfranz



Stop it, damn you! Stop it now, I say!


#99765 04/06/03 06:05 PM
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Aw, poor sjm is feeling a little like chopped liver, methinks.


#99766 04/06/03 06:12 PM
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>sjm is feeling a little like chopped liver..

or he's just had enough of this kiwi agreemony.


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In reference to the original subject, I'd like to add my simple 2 cents worth....

I knew as early as age nine that I was a word lover, when my ears perked up to hear my fourth grade teacher ask why we thought the author of the story we were reading had named her characters the way she did. I looked about and saw nothing but bored, confused, or blank faces, so up goes my hand....I knew the answer! "Because she wanted us to know how to see the character" was my nine year old answer. (My adult answer would be much more inteliigible, of course :)

I remember being fascinated that one could convey a character's personality by merely giving them a suggestive name. And I will forever remember the way my teacher beamed at me, because I knew the answer.

Now, it can be said that by knowing and answering the teacher's question, I categorized myself into a box....one labeled "word lover" as I mentioned, or "smart" as I thought myself that day...but my less enthusiastic classmates labeled me as a "nerd" or a "teacher's pet".

And therein lies my personal example of how certain different words can connote different meanings, even though they may be applied to the same idea.


#99768 04/06/03 09:12 PM
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>agreemony

Perspicacious as always ron. Cool word, too. Sorry, Connie, the Minnesota Marvel scored the bullseye here.


#99769 04/06/03 10:03 PM
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Sorry Ma ... sjm. Didn't read your post before I posted. But I can't promise it won't happen again.

- Pfranz

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