Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#98854 03/18/03 07:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
had it stuck to him.

By his own se'f.


#98855 03/19/03 08:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
D
dxb Offline
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
D
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Came up with this:

A ‘petard,’ in medieval warfare was a metal and bell-shaped explosive charge (a crude hand grenade or mine) which took its name, oddly enough, from the French ‘peter,’ ‘to break wind.’ Daring warriors would affix to the walls or gates of a castle under siege. ...The explosive was detonated by a slow match or slow burning fuse. Occasionally, of course, the explosive went off prematurely, blowing up the man who lit it as well as the castle wall. Such a man was said to be ‘hoist’ (lifted or heaved) ‘by his own petard.’ Note that the ‘hoist’ in the passage is not the same as our modern "hoist"; it's an older form of the word, ‘hoise,’ with a participial ending that ends up as a -t (it would normally be written hoised).


It is unlikely that this archaic phrase would have persisted in our language, even in a figurative sense, had not Shakespeare conferred immortality upon it with his line from ‘Hamlet’ (~1600) when Rosencranz and Guildenstern are sent with Hamlet to England bearing orders that Hamlet be killed. Hamlet alters the orders so that they are killed instead. Hamlet then says: For 'tis the sport to have the engineer hoist with his own petard; and 't shall go hard, but I will delve one yard below their mines, and blow them at the moon. (Hamlet III.iv.206ff, spelling modernized). Today it is chiefly used to describe a person ruined by plans or devices with which he had plotted to ensnare others



#98856 03/19/03 01:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Whoa, dxb--thanks! [impressed as all get-out e] That makes it perfectly clear! Hoised...hoist. Learned...learnt. A-HA--it's you Brit-speakers' fault!


#98857 03/20/03 07:49 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
D
dxb Offline
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
D
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
I freely admit that I didn't understand the bit about hoist not being the same as our modern word hoist - I just quoted it hoping for a reaction. The explanation given didn't appear to create a distinction between its use then and now.


#98858 03/20/03 08:47 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
B
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
I think what it means is that the older hoist is the equivalent of our hoisted.

Bingley


Bingley
#98859 03/20/03 09:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
The modern word "hoist" and its usage come, I believe, from sailing terms. A "hoist" can be a set of sails ready for instant release by pulling a lanyard, or perhaps a bundle of signal flags. I expect that there is some correlation because of the fact that you would get an instant result in both cases ...

- Pfranz

#98860 03/20/03 11:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
AHD3 does indeed note a relation between hoise and hoist, stating that the latter is an alteration of the dialectal former. OED pretty much agrees, differing only in that it throws the variant hoiss into the mix and calling hoist a corruption.


#98861 03/20/03 11:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Corruption -- ah, now we're getting into my area of real expertise!

- Pfranz

#98862 03/20/03 11:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
from sailing terms.

Ah, yes!...Nautical Terms! (a classic)

http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=23217


#98863 03/21/03 01:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Z
Zed Offline
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
Z
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
I don't in the least object to Faldage having another eponym but it seems to me that Wordminstrel is having trouble seeing the forest for the trees. "Hoist us back on course" is perfectly reasonable. It is scientifically possible to hoist, say a car back onto a race course without using a petard at all. Indeed if a petard is really a bomb and not some sort of crane as I always thought, then it is mechanically much more sound not to involve petards. Although Gonzo might not agree.


Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,912
Posts229,283
Members9,179
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
TRIALNERRA, befuddledmind, KILL_YOUR_SUV, Heather_Turey, Standy
9,179 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 302 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,542
wofahulicodoc 10,510
LukeJavan8 9,916
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2024 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5