|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I ran into an interesting argument for prescriptive grammar in writing (emphasis mine) recently. When one is speaking one can add many meaningful elements non-linguistically, through facial expression, tone of voice, body language, etc., that cannot be used in written language. Therefore it is important that well understood and universal rules be followed to ensure proper communication.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
And I generally agree, Faldage. But, if you know the rules and if you're sensitive to how the language is spoken and understood, you can break them for rhetorical effect.
Also, some of the rules need to be occasionally questioned if they consistently plug up the plumbing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
...by entering:
*is when*
Just thought the number of hits was interesting.
Important Edit:I just learned something important about Googling. In the search above, I entered this exactly:
*is when*
...in an attempt to find every listing that included 'is when'--but what I didn't do was to put 'is when' in quotes. Therefore my hits were way off--I looked through the sites and found 'is' and 'when' often split up.
So, here's a correction. By entering:
*"is when"*
...you only get 1,990,000 hits.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
How many hits do you get when you enter "occurs when"? (which is what I would have used in Bill's sentence in the original post)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Forgive me MG, but what I object to is " a thing is when". For the original sentence, I would have written: "An orbit is the path........."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
Fair enough, Nunkle Bill! No forgiveness needed....Your sentence is better than mine, streets better.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
Definitions using "is when" are schoolbook examples of "primitive" or "infantile" talk over here. Literacy is when one avoids them .
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
In reply to:
Definitions using "is when" are schoolbook examples of "primitive" or "infantile" talk over here.
And there's a lot that can be said in support of that point of view, wsieber. Yet, when wordminstrel quotes Thoreau, as I've pasted below, the quote doesn't sound either primitive or infantile to my ear. And I do wonder how many other instances exist of great writers having used the "is when" construction? It would be an interesting treasure hunt had I the time and inclincation to undertake such a search:
Thoreau didn't think so: "Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake."~wordminstrel's observation and quote of Thoreau
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Thoreau wasn't so much defining [o]ur truest life as he was describing when it was made manifest.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
I agree with Faldage here: it's not wrong to use is when when you're actually talking about a time! Maybe if you can flip it around into a sensible question-and-answer pair it's OK:
When is our truest life? It's when we are in dreams awake.
as opposed to
When is an orbit? It's when one object in the universe (for example a planet or a star) goes round another one without touching it.
The second one should be what is an orbit!!!! Hence you cannot use when in the original version either. Well, you can, but it is informal and - well, maybe infantile* is a bit harsh - to use it to precede a definition which has nothing to do with time.
* But little kids speak like this all the time, so infantile is probably correct.
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,322
Members9,182
|
Most Online3,341 Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
0 members (),
412
guests, and
0
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|