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#9749 11/02/00 01:36 AM
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I read the beginning of a discussion on plays in the "Indians" thread, and wanted more.

Shanks wrote that Shakespearean plays asked for the willing suspension of disbelief with simple (stupid?) plots. I think Shakespeare's play existed in the characters and the dialogue. Yes, they ask for a suspension of disbelief, which people of yore seem to be able to better than us, but perhaps it's also necessary for plots to be simple, to have a better characterisation.

Other examples that come to mind are Moliere's "The Hypochondriac", Anouilh's "Antigone". Simple plots, great characters. What do you think?

* Aenigma thinks that Shanks should be Shannon as in Williams' "The Night of the Iguana". It knows...


#9750 11/02/00 01:47 AM
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You remind me of something I heard from some English teacher, way back in my youth: "There are only seven plots."
Does anyone know a)who said this and b)the correct quote?

And if not, let's all come up with the seven plots. I can imagine the first and the last


#9751 11/02/00 01:51 AM
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I have enjoyed Brecht's literal interpretation of "suspension of disbelief" ... he took it to the absurd (en vogue at the time) by pausing dramatic action to address the audience.


#9752 11/02/00 07:11 AM
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I remember a discussion I had with someone about this subject ages ago and can always remember the scenarios like "Romeo & Juliet", "Othello" and "Cinderella".

I spotted this from the Wollogong Pig Breeders' Gazette (where else?) discussing Irish playwright Denis Johnston's eight plots for plays :
http://ncc1701.apana.org.au/~larrikin/sfandom/fanzines/middlemissp/wpbg2.html

"1. Cinderella - or unrecognised virtue at last recognised. It's the same story as the Tortoise and the Hare. Cinderella doesn't have to be a girl, nor does it even have to be a love story. What is essential is that the Good is despised, but is recognised in the end, something that we all want to believe.

"2. Achilles - the Fatal Flaw that is the groundwork for practically all classical tragedy, although it can be made comedy too, as in the old standard Aldwych farce. Lennox Robinson's The Whiteheaded Boy is the Fatal Flaw in reverse.

"3. Faust - the Debt that Must be Paid, the fate that catches up with all of us sooner or later. This is found in all its purity as the chase in O'Neill's The Emperor Jones. And in a completely different mood, what else is The Cherry Orchard?

"4. Tristan - the standard triangular plot of two women and one man, or two men and one woman. The Constant Nymph or almost any French farce.

"5. Circe - the Spider and the Fly. The Barretts of Wimpole Street if you want to change the sex. And if you don't believe me about Othello (the real plot of which is not the triangle and only incidentally jealousy) try casting it with a good Desdemona but a poor Iago.

"6. Romeo and Juliet - Boy meets Girl, Boy loses Girl, Boy either finds or does not find Girl - it doesn't matter which.

"7. Orpheus - the Gift taken Away. This may take two forms: either the tragedy of the loss itself, as in Juno and the Paycock, or it may be about the search that follows the loss, as in Jason and the Golden Fleece.

"8. The Hero Who Cannot Be Kept Down - the best example of this is that splendid play Harvey, made into a film with James Stewart.

"These plots can be presented in so man different forms - tragedy, comedy, farce, whodunit - and they can be inverted, but they still form the basis of all good writing. The fault of many contemporary plays is simply that they do not have a plot."

to which he added the following note:
"To Denis Johnston's eight plots for plays you can add David and Goliath, the individual against the repressive/corrupt powers of the state or community, or their rival claims. As in Enemy of the People, The Visit and, of course, Antigone."

The other book which I have heard mentioned from time to time is "The Thirty-Six Dramatic Situations" by Georges Polti, reviewed here:http://www.glassner.com/personal/drama/screen/books/polti.htm


#9753 11/02/00 11:11 AM
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Avy

Shanks wrote that Shakespearean plays asked for the willing suspension of disbelief with simple (stupid?) plots.

I suppose it sounds a bit condescending for me to make such remarks about Shakespeare's plays. What I meant, if I may be allowed to go into a little more detail, is that Shakespeare's plot devices were probably never meant to be better than 'formal' affairs, as opposed to a naturalistic device that could pass for something in real life. As you rightly point our, Shakespeare used these devices in order to set up the action - and it is upon the action, the langyage, the emotional interaction between the characters, and the use of plot/sub-plot parallels that gives Shakespearian drama so much of its power.

At the other end, of course, is someone like Ben Jonson, of who's The Alchemist Coleridge once said that it was one of the three most perfectly plotted works of literature. (Score extra points for telling us which the other two were!) Jonson was famous for flattening out his characters, and making them fit into his idea of people having 'humours', and there being only four basic character types and so on. (Jonson wasn't stupid - he parodied the idea as well...)

Of course, a simple plot is not the same as a stupid plot. As you point out, Antigone is simple, but there's nothing stupid about it.

cheer

the sunshine (I shall not make frivolous posts in Q&A) warrior

ps. Tell Aenigma I'd rather be 'lousy' in Krapp's Last Tape


#9754 11/02/00 11:20 AM
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I'd heard of 36 plots before this, but didn't realise it had all started with Polti's book. Thanks for the link.

My own idea, when I first read a character in a book referring to there being 'only 36 plots', was that perhaps this was a Shakespearian reference - since the ol' Avonian wrote approximately that many plays. I say approximately, of course, because I am too circumspect (or too cowardly) to claim absolute knowledge, when battles over the attribution of works like <I>The two gentlemen of Verona</I> or <I>The two noble kinsmen</I> still raise much sound and fury.

I also enjoyed the detail on the 'eight plots for plays'. Ta.

cheer

the sunshine warrior


#9755 11/02/00 12:32 PM
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Thank you for those links/sources, Jo!

I spotted this from the Wollogong Pig Breeders' Gazette (where else?)

Where else, indeed?


#9756 11/02/00 01:03 PM
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I spotted this from the Wollogong Pig Breeders' Gazette

Sounds like a guest publication on "Have I Got News For You".


#9757 11/02/00 10:22 PM
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On the Wollogong Pig Breeders' Gazette

When I consider how my light is spent ... I wonder if reading material from the Wollogong Pig Breeders' Gazette is really taking me to where I want to be in life.


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When I consider how my light is spent ... I wonder if reading material from the Wollogong Pig Breeders' Gazette is really taking me to where I want to be in life.

They also serve who only stand and swill?


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