|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
ultimate = last
penultimate = next to the last
antepenultimate = last but two; before the next to the last; third from the last(?)
preantepenultimate = last but three; fourth from the last(?)
the ultimate definition for the last two words seems wrong to me, and in fact is contradicted by some sources. what does our usage panel say?
..(I'd say, 'fourth from the end' for preantepenultimate.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Regarding the third and fourth from the last counts, I gotta agree with you, tsuwm, on strictly logical grounds. I think it is a misapplication of the common third (or fourth, as the case may be) from, e.g., the right where the one on the right could be said to be the first from the right, defining the right as the right edge of the frame of view. Saying the last seems to me to be explicitly referring to the last item and not to some defining point beyond the last item.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
This usage panelist agrees with y'all. "last" is a translation from "ultimate" so it's wrong in both languages.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Antepenultimate would be second from last, third from the finish line.
Since better words seem to be lacking, we might as well keep using them.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Since better words seem to be lacking
I see no problems with the words, just with the definitions giving [erroneous] counts from the last.
The pen-, BTW, is from the Latin paene meaning almost. Thus the penultimate is almost last. Likewise, a peninsula is almost an island.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Well, at first I thought I agreed with you all, but as I wrote my interpretation, realized I disagree to a certain degree.
If you were looking at a photograph of a group of people lined and rowed up, and you said, "Who is that man on the second row, third from the end?" Well, you would count the end as "first," the second person there as "second," and the third person from the end as the antepenultimate person--or third from last. I wouldn't count the third from last person as being the fourth. It makes sense to me that we go from last, to next to last, to third from last because as we count things, we naturally progress from one number to the next. If you're counting backwards from a point, last becomes first, next to last becomes second, and third from last is third.
In other words, we have first, second, and third in line; when we count backwards from the end of the line on up toward the beginning, we still maintain first, second, third, etc.
Therefore, third from the end (or third from last) would clearly be antepenultimate in my way of reasoning.
Third from last is third (antepenultimate), not fourth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
"end" and "last" are two different thangs, I tell ya! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
End and last may be two different things, but they can also be the same thing.
A person who is the end of the line will also be the last in line.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
my opinion on this (end/last) is above, in white--third from the last is fourth from the end (especially with syllables).
-joe mincemeat
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
The person is *at the end of the line. The person *is the last in line.
Wanna take this outside? hehehe
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
What is the last day of the month of November?
What is the date of the final day of November?
Which day is the end of November?
What is the ultimate day of November?
We're talking in the above about the 30th, if we're talking dates and not specific days of the week. The end of November is the same as the last date.
The antepenultimate date would be the 28th of November. We count first, second, third backwards to find that date if we don't want to subtract. At least, that's how I would count those first, second, and third positions to determine the antepenultimate date in November.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
The last is the last. The end comes after the last. Third from the last is, at best, ambiguous. If it's ambiguous, the hell with it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Which day is the end of November?
The end of November is not a day. It is the instant of midnight between November 30 and December 1. It is also the beginning of December.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>Third from the last is, at best, ambiguous.
that's why it's better to say, "the last but three", or fourth from the end.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Joe, we're agreeing with you, already. And far be it from me to turn this into a (trumpet blare, horse neigh) Food Thread, but mincemeat has no meat in it, yes?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
The end comes after the last in certain situations, Faldage, but here we are counting. The end becomes a numerical place when we refer to positions in line--at least in this commonplace way of counting people in line, ducks in a row, dates on a calendar, pages in a book.
The end of a book would be in normal speech the last numbered page on which one found text. Sure, the book might have blank sheets after the end of the book, but the last page would be the same number as what we would ordinarily speak of as the end of the book. "I read that Michener novel in one night, from the first page to the last, start to finish, beginning to end! All 900 pages!" And the person would not mean any page after that last that did not include text when referring to the novel itself. (Of course, there's the problem with the first page rarely being page one in novels, but that's an altogether different situation.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
The end comes after the last in certain situations
So, in reference to antepenultimate, third from the end is now ambiguous and third from the last flat out wrong. How bout third to the last?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
OK. I've got an idea.
Let's say you're reading through a draft of a choral work, 12 pages and 120 measures long--lots of notes in each measure, highly complicated.
And let's say your group cannot get the ending of the piece right. Everything's fine till you hit the last staff--and it's as though the whole group crashes.
So, your conductor says,
"Go back three bars from the end."
Or:
(If this were a show-offy kind of word nerdy conductor)
"Return to the antepenultimate measure."
Or:
"Go back to the third measure before the end."
Or:
"Return to the third from last measure."
All these places would be the same place in my head.
I think part of the problem is we don't ordinarily hear people say, "Return to the second from last position." We just don't use second from last. We use, instead, next to last. The word next has elbowed out the word second when counting backwards in a series from first (i.e., last) position backwards into the series.
Oh, well, I've written too much about this and I don't think we're really going to come to a point of agreement.
I do agree that the words "end" and "last" have to be carefully used and are not always interchangeable, but I also believe that there are times that "end" and "last" are referring to the same thing, e.g., last page of a book = end of the book.
And to tsuwm: I'm obviously the only one here who doesn't have a problem with antepenultimate as defined above.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
I'm with ya WW. 
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Well, *our director would say, "go to measure (e.g.,) 103."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180
member
|
|
member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180 |
My god! Both points of view make perfectly good sense to me. I'm just glad there is such a word as preantepenultimate, and that there is actually a large body of people who know that "penultimate" doesn't mean "the very last".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
there is actually a large body of people who know
Welcome home, birdfeed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508 |
Count me in with eta and WW on this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180
member
|
|
member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 180 |
Welcome home, birdfeed.
Aw shucks. I'm touched. There are those who would spell it "tetched" and mean something else entirely.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Ah-ite. Let's try *this.
You're at the last one. That'll be the ultimate. Count one forward from the last. You're now at the penultimate. Now count two forward from the last one. Where are you now?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
In reply to:
Count one forward from the last. You're now at the penultimate. Now count two forward from the last one. Where are you now?
Well, I'm in a different place, of course, because you've switched the type of numbers from ordinal to cardinal. The definition tsuwm questioned used ordinal numbers and that's what we were looking at.
Take a look at "what we were looking at" as a clause. The ultimate word is "at"; the penultimate word is "looking."
OK, Faldage, what is the antepenultimate word in the clause? If you know that "antepnultimate" means third from last position, isn't it a normal mental operation to count back, point to "at" and saying "first," then to "looking" and saying "second" and finally to "were" and saying "third"? It's just how we would count ordinal positions there.
Apparently for some readers "third from last" means fourth position and for others "third from last" means third position. I can't agree with birdfeed and say that both ways of counting make sense to me because for me, each and every time, "third from last" would clearly be the antepenultimate position.
Oh, and by the way, the reason I used "draft" for that musical score was to imply that measure numbers weren't on the score. I was imagining a draft of a work without measure numbers, and should have stated as much.
Interesting discussion here, anyway, to show, once again, the sometimes ambiguity of our most marvelous language.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>Apparently for some readers "third from last" means fourth position and for others "third from last" means third position.
the point I've tried to make here is that I (it's all about me, you know) don't know what "third from the last" means; whereas I know exactly what "third from the end", "third from the right", or "last but two" signifies.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Maybe we should send a copy of this thread to Jay Leno and ask him to have his crew ask the men on the street to point to the third from last number in a row of numbers to see what the results would be.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Just had dinner with my parents. I wrote out these numbers on a card:
1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8
...without the ellipses.
I put the card in front of my father and asked, "What is the third from last number? This is not a trick question."
He pointed to the six.
I did the same for my mom, who is shrewd, and she counted backwards from the eight and stopped on six. She said, "Six."
I thanked them. They asked what it was all about, and I said, "People on the board are discussing what the meaning of 'third from last' is."
Mama said, "I'd think you'd have better things to do."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Not to argue with Alex over in W & F, but I think *this is the funniest discussion we've had in a long time! Welcome to you, birdfeed, by the way.
Here's what Atomica gives for antepenultimate: Coming before the next to the last in a series. That seems pretty clear to me. (It went to Google for pre-, and there wasn't anything clearer that I saw than what's already here.) My opinion is that if you accept 'next to the last' as being what we normally think of it as--say the letter Y in the alphabet, that when you say third from the last, you cannot THEN decide that Z is not, after all, the last.
Possibly the word 'the' is adding to the confusion: next to last (why do I want to hyphenate that?), third to last, etc., seem a little clearer.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
I was thinking more about this on my walk tonight (woe is me)--I think it's the word from or to that changes things. Ww had a good point about ordinals. consider a set of 5 steps: a b c d e. a is the first step, c is the third step, e is the last. you could also make the case that c is the third last and d is the second last. but when you throw "from" in there, you are implying a count (to my way of thinking) so that c is second from (the) last.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I dont' think we have any confusion about what antepenultimate means, Jackie.
And Dub' I think you've given me supporting evidence for my contention that "third from the last" is ambiguous. I don't see how switching between cardinal and ordinal numbers should change anything. And whether "third from the last" refers to the antepenultimate or the preantepenultimate depends on whether you do your counting by counting items or counting moves. To me the use of the word "from" implies that you are counting moves. The last item is zeroth from the last, i.e., it is the last item. You might wait a while for your folks to forget* or pick some other random couple and ask them which is first from the last. At the risk of being accused of reinyartation® I say: It's ambiguous. The hell with it.
Ha! Then you'll be accused not only of not having better things to do, but of being obsessive about your trivialities.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Ah, Faldage, but they're mine, and there are other spirits roving about who share 'em, and you're one of 'em, too. Thought I existed by myself [professional linguists aside] in this world of wondering how words worked till Sept. 30, 2001, when I came upon by chance the lot of you here. Let me explain as simply as I can what I meant by the ordinal/cardinal comment. When we were counting using ordinal numbers, the operation was fairly simple, though ambiguous for some here. I use my parents again as an example. I simply put to them, with no preparation, the question "What is the third from last number?" The careful analysis you've given of the meaning of "from" didn't throw them. They simply began their count from back/first position to third position back and easily arrived at what I'd easily arrived at--all three of us easily understanding the terms used in tsuwm's definition he quoted, the one that had given him pause for thought. Now let's take a look at your language in which you switched from ordinal to cardinal numbers: In reply to:
You're at the last one. That'll be the ultimate. Count one forward from the last.
You're now at the penultimate. Now count two forward from the last one. Where
are you now?
Well, you see, by having us "count one forward" we entered a new counting game. You gave us the starting position ("the last one"), implied that wasn't included in the count, and then went on to instruct us how to set the count. But I don't think we normally think your way. I don't think we normally think, "OK. I'm now going to count forward (actually backwards) one from the last, and then on to two..." etc. When we see lists and rows and are considering positions, I think we naturally think in ordinal numbers to determine these positions.
I think instead that if someone asks us which number is third from last, we immediately think ordinally (if that's an adverb) and immediately count, "First, second, third." Easy operation. Done quickly as my aged parents did quickly. And I don't think the thought occurred to them, "What is the true meaning of 'from'?"
The reason I think this may have been the case for them, at least, is we're accustomed to phrases that include the last place as the place to begin to move. And I also believe we naturally count these positions as ordinal, not cardinal, numbers.
Consider a list of numbers:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Which one is third from the bottom? Most of us would say "5." I don't think anyone would say, "Which is the third from last" in a vertical list of numbers. It has something to do with what is customarily applied. A list runs vertically: we naturally refer to something we want to identify at the bottom as "third" from the bottom and possibly "third from the end." However, if I were looking at the list and had to identify the third from last number, I'd still identify "five" as the number. I do not think I'd move into the use of cardinal numbers in my speaking or thinking and say to myself, "Count one forward (or upward or backward)" etc. I don't think that's how we naturally think in these cases. I think we've been trained to express such positions in ordinal numbers--and that's how we express ourselves in cases in which we're indentifying positions in a row or a line, even if we're referring to a very large list, such as class rank: "She graduated 122nd in her class."
So this morning I think our different points of view are based on how we interpret the word from when used with the word last.
For me, consistently, in looking at a horizontal arrangement of numbers and items, the phrase "third from last" is immediately apparent as what we are now referring to as the antepenultimate position. And I suspect that for many people this would be true, too. And I additionally suspect that the situation becomes problematical for those who get hung up on the "from last" relationship and begin to analyze that relationship right out of existence: It shouldn't be used because it's ambiguous, they believe. Well, it's ambiguous to those who analyze it to death, but it's not ambiguous to those for whom phrases such as "third from the bottom" and "third from the end" are clear. "Third from last" simply becomes as an equivalent type phrase--it takes on the same meaning through association without studied over-analysis.
We use ordinal numbers for determination of positions regularly, just as we use cardinal numbers for determination of quantity. And that's why I found your switching from counting by ordinal to cardinal numbers awkward and unnatural in the situation tsuwm has posed.
Best regards as always,
WW
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Yo Mama seems to disagree with you.
It's ambiguous...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>this is the funniest discussion we've had in a long time!
one other thing to note about this thread: it points out a flaw in the Stales Index. when the same three people read and post repeatedly, it skews the SI rather inordinately.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
read and post repeatedly Uh, didn't you mean riposte, my friend? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Consider a long, continuous line of coloured squares: the green squares are followed immediately by the red squares, which are followed by the blue squares, etc, etc.
I ask you to place a counter on a red square, the second from the last.
Would you ut the counter on the same square if I asked you to place it on the red square, second from the end?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Answer: Yes, I would.
Second from last and second from the end of the red squares are both the same.
Now I know there is an exceptional case to all of this, but I'm not going to go there yet because I'm trying to let tsuwm see how everyday people think of phrases, such as:
third from last
third from the end
third from the bottom
...as eqivalent expressions of ordinal positions.
I ran a very interesting test yesterday. My kids are listening to "Peter and the Wolf" this week. Part of their preparation is reviewing the woodwind family we have been taking a look at the entire first grading period of school as the ten-minute orchestral part of their lesson I include for all grade levels, kindergarten through fifth grade.
On the back wall of the music room, I have a sort of parade of the nine, large instrument cards we covered (woodwinds) with the name of each printed out and displayed with each instrument.
Before listening to the wolf and Peter, I show the children the instruments that will be key players in the story. At the far left end I've also added a card with strings to represent Peter and a card for timpani to show the rifles of the hunters.
OK. Everything's labeled and in a row. No numbers. Just names.
Yesterday, as an experiment generated by my curiosity here and also as a way to check whether my second graders (roughly seven years old) could respond quickly with the basic facts after hearing the work, I asked a series of questions by referring my children to the display of labeled instrument cards. I asked:
"The third from last instrument (i.e., card) was represented by which character?"
Kids piped out: "The grandfather!"
"The last instrument (i.e., card) was represented by which character?"
Kids piped out: "The duck!"
*Cross my heart, I never referred to the cards before by ordinal terms. I'd pointed to the pictures directly beforehand and said whatever points I'd wanted to make about the instrument.
What I'm getting at here is this group of young children had no problem whatsoever in translating what I meant by "third from last" "fifth from last" (clarinet) and similar terms. They responded very quickly since I was asking for group response (which we all know is a lemming response in children, but still the group responded correctly every time). And the rapidity of their answers is enlightening because they were having to (very quickly):
1. Find the correct picture I'd identified only by phrases such as "fourth from last instrument";
2. And make the connection between the picture and name they saw there and identify the correct character from the work.
I would suggest here that even if a child had never before heard "fourth from last," he would have been able to translate the meaning because of having possibly applied "fourth from the bottom" or "fourth from the end."
A tangent: What has been most surprising to me in this week of Peter's wolf is only a few children have ever heard it or even seen it in the numerous video/cartoon renditions of it. When I ask them, before plunging into the preparation, only two or three hands will go up in each class. The only exception this week was a fourth grade class in which seven out of about twenty-five hands went up.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I seem to have misread your post on your parents' responses and apologize for my accusations of ambiguity. I also applaud the format of your test with the students; you got the information you were looking for in a context that completely disguised the question while at the same time getting the information that your lesson to the children was about. However, I stand by my contention that *logically, it's wrong to say that the antepenultimate is third from the last, but then who am I to condemn something linguistic for not being logical?
As a further test I would suggest asking people to identify the first from the last in a series.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
As a further test I would suggest asking people to identify the first from the last in a series. Ugh! At last you have hit upon the root of this eternal confusion (I remember e.g. the discussion about "quinzaine" meaning two weeks). Nobody ever uses "first from the last"! In spite of the logical hole, the penultimate is generally considered the second from the last (german "zweitletzter", symmetrical to the second, i.e. the "second from the first" which should be the second from the beginning, but this beginning is thin air). (reductio ad absurdum) 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
identify the first from the last in a series.This, I think, is the root of the argument. I haven't posted anything here yet because it's been fun to watch you guys argue. Anyway, I think the whole problem stems from there being no first from the last, i.e., the first from the last is the same as the last. (Why is this starting to sound vaguely Biblical? "And the last shall be first and the first shall be last..." Obviously they have struggled with this question for something like 2000 years! ) Anyway, we only really talk about the second-last, third-last, fourth-last and so on. And why hasn't anyone noted the above forms (that is, with hyphens) in this discussion? Those would be the ones I most commonly hear and read.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>And why hasn't anyone noted the above forms
actually®, I did (just without the hyphens).
-joe pate (just without the markings)
<just forget I started this thread>
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
Sorry, tsuwm, I guess I missed them, maybe by reading too quickly or maybe because if you read this thread for too long it all begins to sound a bit Dr. Seuss-y.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,534 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,534 Likes: 1 |
If you insist on making a distinction, the ambiguity can be removed by referring to the "third from the last" for the standard/intuitive meaning and the "third away from the last" for the hair-splitting one.
I prefer Tsuwm's Law: if it's awkward, don't use it. (or was that Safire's Law?)
(And now, sports fans, can you think of a word with the letters "-wkw-" in it somewhere, in exactly that order?)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
I can't wait for someone to make the antepenultimate post in this thread.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I can't wait for someone to make the antepenultimate post in this thread.Goodness, no! This is too much fun to read! Wofa makes a point, let's see what the major contestants, tsuwm, Wordwind and Faldage have to say.... my own se'f, I'm penultimately broque. x-thread
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Well, I have a comment to make. [Deep-breath-e]
"First from last" is a valid way of thinking, speaking and writing to indicate "penultimate." I now can at least see that "first from last" has validity, even though "next to last" is the more common term. I won't use "first from last," but will stick with "next to last" because it's easily understandable. I will also use "penultimate" when I want to sound like a smart aleck.
However, even though I understand "first from last," I see that "second from last" is the same thing as "first from last." This is perhaps a linguistic paradox. Ain't English fun?
I'm convinced that, in my little neck of the woods, the children have no problem with shouting out in unison the correct positions (the way I reckon 'em) when asked for "third from last" (i.e., antepenultimate), "second from last" (i.e., penultimate), and even "seventh from last" positions. I know this because I tried it again today. The only problem I encountered today was with one class in which a rebellious student decided to identify "first" (true first: to the far left) as "last." So beats on the independent spirit in the human race. [Essentially, the student in question identified the kettle drums as the duck in "Peter and the Wolf," but I do believe that student has a cognitive processing problem that goes a bit beyond first and last.]
Although I haven't asked my kids about "first from last," I have a sneaking suspicion that they would also identify that position as "second from last" if I hadn't used "second from last" first. I could try it out next week just to see.
But what I suggest here is that because "first from last" is such a rare expression, that "next to last" is the best bet to use if you want to be understood. If you use "penultimate," you're going to lose part of your audience who will, as birdseed has observed, will think you mean the ultimate or last position.
The whole point here is to be understood. "Know your audience." And, if the world at large is your audience, I don't expect many of them to be lost by "next to last," "third from last," "fourth from last," and so on. I think they will naturally count, using ordinal numbers, just as my aged parents and young children did.
Tonight I will ask my dad to identify the first from last number on the notecard just to see what his reaction is.
I will tell you my dad is a kidder. I would tell you the coyote tale he told me tonight, but I'll save that for Animal Safari if someone starts a coyote thread. You know, like: "What is the adjective form of coyote?"
Whether first from last, second away from last, third from the end, or fourth away from the last, it's debatable whether we should, in every instance, save the best for last.
Best regards,
WW
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Tonight at supper, I pulled out the card from last night's dinner--the one with:
1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8
...on it without ellipses.
I asked my dad, "What is first from last?"
He answered, "One and eight."
Chew on that for a while.
And:
Back to the kid who said the 'last' card (i.e., really the first card, the kettle drums) was the "Duck!"
Explanation: He pointed in full view to the first card. The other kids were saying, "Duck!" (i.e., last card, oboe). I think an logical explanation for his behavior was that "lemming behavior" I wrote about somewhere way above all this nonsense.
Back to my dad. I burst out laughing and said, "Can't wait to tell Faldage what you said!"
He said, "Y'all are way above my head."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
Can I play? We don't say that we are the beginning person in a line we say that we are the first person in line. Why? Because being a first person is easy to number and it doesn't cost us any wasted energy to be exact. We usually don't say that we are the end person in a line because it can be heard as in person, so we just say last, or last person. And if we are last in a long line it is sometimes very hard to count just how last we are, so we just say last and leave the numbering out. But if we want to be picky and fix our position more precisely in a line we can count forward from the beginning or backwards from the end, whichever way in easiest to count. This is done 1, 2, 3, etc., always starting the count relative to the first or last person at either terminal end. That way we can then convey our position to anyone who'll listen to our happy gloats or our sour complaints. Big deal, no problem, until some high mucketymucks decided that we needed to name the three positions relative to the last position of the line with some polysyllablic clumsy names that mostly catered to showing-off. I diagram below... Beginning of line, numbered..... [Box Office] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [etc.] then... Middle of line unnumbered and unnamed... [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] [x] End of line, four named... [x] [x] [x] [x] [?] [?] [?] [?] <--< (last person or unit) ______________________^ultimate (last) position ___________________^penultimate position ________________^antepenulitumate position _____________^preantepenulitumate position No matter that these cumbersome words would never be used by decent God fearing men, they soon found extensive use among hoodwinkers, lawyers, and polititians, whose jobs depend on words of obfuscation. Then one day along came tswum, a man who never left a tweak untwated, a crafty man who quickly found a soul cell mate in the man Faldage, who, when not on line, argues with stumps. No, no, no, I don't mean to imply that they argued with the meanings of the three awkward constructions, they didn't, they argued with the way the definition was given. And so as not to mislead, tswum and faldage preferred fourth from the end as opposed to fourth from the last.And grit my teeth, they are right. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
can you think of a word with the letters "-wkw-" in it somewhere, in exactly that order?hawkwings
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,534 Likes: 1
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,534 Likes: 1 |
hawkwings
Nice, but isn't that (literally speaking) two words?
And apropos of this entire next-to-last-or-not discussion, the problem is that the "end" is not quite the same as the "object at the end," and therein lies our pilpul. The same ambiguity is exploited in all kinds of trick problems, involving for instance how long it takes a clock to chime a certain sequence...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
(literally speaking) two words?
Maybe, but hawkweed is but one.
But then I cheated to get that one, he said awkwardly.
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,317
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
688
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
