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#87411 11/20/02 02:29 PM
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tsuwm Offline OP
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ultimate = last
penultimate = next to the last
antepenultimate = last but two; before the next to the last; third from the last(?)
preantepenultimate = last but three; fourth from the last(?)

the ultimate definition for the last two words seems wrong to me, and in fact is contradicted by some sources. what does our usage panel say?

..(I'd say, 'fourth from the end' for preantepenultimate.)


#87412 11/20/02 02:46 PM
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Regarding the third and fourth from the last counts, I gotta agree with you, tsuwm, on strictly logical grounds. I think it is a misapplication of the common third (or fourth, as the case may be) from, e.g., the right where the one on the right could be said to be the first from the right, defining the right as the right edge of the frame of view. Saying the last seems to me to be explicitly referring to the last item and not to some defining point beyond the last item.


#87413 11/20/02 02:49 PM
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This usage panelist agrees with y'all. "last" is a translation from "ultimate" so it's wrong in both languages.


#87414 11/20/02 03:47 PM
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Antepenultimate would be second from last, third from the finish line.
Since better words seem to be lacking, we might as well keep using them.


#87415 11/20/02 03:54 PM
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Since better words seem to be lacking

I see no problems with the words, just with the definitions giving [erroneous] counts from the last.

The pen-, BTW, is from the Latin paene meaning almost. Thus the penultimate is almost last. Likewise, a peninsula is almost an island.


#87416 11/20/02 05:15 PM
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Well, at first I thought I agreed with you all, but as I wrote my interpretation, realized I disagree to a certain degree.

If you were looking at a photograph of a group of people lined and rowed up, and you said, "Who is that man on the second row, third from the end?" Well, you would count the end as "first," the second person there as "second," and the third person from the end as the antepenultimate person--or third from last. I wouldn't count the third from last person as being the fourth. It makes sense to me that we go from last, to next to last, to third from last because as we count things, we naturally progress from one number to the next. If you're counting backwards from a point, last becomes first, next to last becomes second, and third from last is third.

In other words, we have first, second, and third in line; when we count backwards from the end of the line on up toward the beginning, we still maintain first, second, third, etc.

Therefore, third from the end (or third from last) would clearly be antepenultimate in my way of reasoning.

Third from last is third (antepenultimate), not fourth.




#87417 11/20/02 05:17 PM
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"end" and "last" are two different thangs, I tell ya!


#87418 11/20/02 05:22 PM
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End and last may be two different things, but they can also be the same thing.

A person who is the end of the line will also be the last in line.


#87419 11/20/02 05:24 PM
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my opinion on this (end/last) is above, in white--third from the last is fourth from the end (especially with syllables).

-joe mincemeat


#87420 11/20/02 05:25 PM
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The person is *at the end of the line. The person *is the last in line.

Wanna take this outside? hehehe


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