Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#85082 10/29/02 04:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
W
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
In reply to:

Which of those rules seems inelegant to you?


None of them. Those rules seem elegant to me. Simple as straw and as elegant. But I've internalized them and they are as familiar as family. Don't mean to imply here that my family is simple.


#85083 10/29/02 04:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
re:All pronouns can be re-replaced with the noun they replaced, except the grump of a pronoun, "I"

well, as you pointed out, I can be replaced, i can say "Of troy has blond hair"-- but once i replace I with my name, I also have change the verb...

Using this form of address, (refering to yourself, using your own name and the third person verb form is illeitst.. (il eet ist) it sound like elitist! not just the word elitist, but speaking in this form sound like you consider your self elite! it sounds self centered, and egotistic.
(of course that is just my opinion!) the form is generally not used (and who knows, that too could change) because my opinion, is shared-- many think the style to be one used by self centered pompous idiots -- and in movies and television, this style is often employed as a short hand to learn a persons 'character'.

Can you use "Name (thirdperson verb)" and not be egotistic? Sure! but you're still going to sound that way!

i suppose once or twice in a live time, it is the clearest form, but for the most part, when talking about yourself, you use I.


#85084 10/29/02 05:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
W
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Dear of troy,

Where did you find the pronunciation of the adjective form of illeism? I found the noun form in two places on onelook.com, but no adjective form or pronunciation.

Thanks for letting me in on your reference.

WW


#85085 10/29/02 05:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
> illeitst

I'm going out on a limb here and guessing that that's an exclusive ot spelling (and pronunciation). <grinace>

edit: it turns out that illeism is a nonce-word coined by Coleridge from L. ille, that man, he; after egoism. it's pronounced IL-i-iz-em, so (best guess) IL-i-est.

#85086 10/29/02 05:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
B
old hand
Offline
old hand
B
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
WordWind, I think I see what Ryan is getting at.

It does seem funny that "I am..." is proper grammar, until you re-replace the pronoun with the noun it was originally replacing (!); that is, you substitute "WordWind" for "I". Then, even though you may still be talking about yourself, the verb changes to third person singular! Why should it - you're still talking about yourself! (Just pointing out the failure in logic here and waiting for Faldage to make some dry remark about logic and English being mutually exclusive...)

I find the example of "Jeremy don't want to" very interesting, and that construction is possibly more logical than "Jeremy doesn't want to" when talking about oneself. Jeremy's logic must have gone something like this:

"I don't want to" -> I'd like to make this more emphatic, I think I'll use my name instead of I, but I'll keep don't because I'm still referring to I here, and that's the verb that goes with the concept of I -> "Jeremy don't want to"

So somehow Jeremy forms that sentence from a deeper understanding of the concept of I in the language. He thinks that the verb form don't, pointing to himself, is more important than the pronoun used to do the pointing. Interesting, hey?


#85087 10/29/02 06:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
waiting for Faldage to make some dry remark about logic and English being mutually exclusive

I wouldn't go that far. I do think that logic can be pushed too far in attempts to analyze any natural language. I also think that RK's question deserves some serious discussion. Unfortunately*, I am not able to spend much time on it right now.

*Or maybe, fortunately.


#85088 10/29/02 11:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Much of the problem here seems to be that we practically never use anything but pronouns in first and second person. There's the additional matter of our having conflated all present tense, indicative conjugations except the third person singular in almost all verbs. In this case it means that we expect a single name, e.g., Ryan, to go with a third person singular verb and it doesn't sound right if we hear it some other way. That this is approximately the same argument that gives us nucular for nuclear may be dismissed by some, but it does fit with Safire's Law, "if it sounds funny, the hell with it." Still, it seems somehow to go against the simple notion that a pronoun is a word used in the place of a noun or noun phrase. To put it in another context, which is correct?

A) It is I who is the House Fool,

or

2) It is I who am the House Fool?


#85089 10/29/02 11:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
"I am what I am"

Popeye



formerly known as etaoin...
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,912
Posts229,283
Members9,179
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
TRIALNERRA, befuddledmind, KILL_YOUR_SUV, Heather_Turey, Standy
9,179 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 444 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,542
wofahulicodoc 10,510
LukeJavan8 9,916
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2024 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5