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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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My husband was helping one of the boys with a little project today, which involved the use of an envelope, and I noticed that he was speaking of an "ahnvelope." I usually pronounce it with an "en" rather than an "on" first syllable, but I've heard the word pronounced both ways all my life. So, scratching the itch of curiousity, I resolved to learn why the variable pronunciation. And it is:
"Envelope" was borrowed from the French, and initially was pronounced as the French word was, with the "ah" sound, like envoy, encore, ennui, ensemble, entree, entourage, and entrepreneur. That pronunciation is still considered acceptable, although it is now in the minority, as "envelope" has become anglicized.
How do you pronounce "envelope"? Has that pronunciation changed over the years? Does it differ from how your parents pronounced "envelope"?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Truthfully, Sparteye, I've been using both, interchangeably, all my life, and I've always wondered the same, but never bothered to LIU. I think I've come to use en- more frequently, though. The only rhyme or reason for the use of one or the other I can recognize offhand, in my personal lexicon, is that I believe I'm more prone to use ahn- in a more pointedly formal situation like asking someone at a wedding if they presented the couple with their ahnvelope, yet; or for an ahnvelope to be presented as an award (or one I ask for in public or onstage to open to read a listing), etc. And I usually use the ahn- alone...when it's in combination it's en- as in "business envelope" or "self-addressed stamped envelope". (now I'm wondering why I do this).
In the verb form, of course, it's always en- with me. "We can envelope the whole area." But, then, the suffix changes here, too, from -lope to -lup [en-VEL-up]
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Carpal Tunnel
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The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Hate to admit it, but I do the frog pronunciation too (most of the time).
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Pooh-Bah
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I'm with WON, use it both ways - neither rhyme nor reason to it. I also agree with the verb form, but my guess is every one would.
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I thought (as someone who only recently spelt "printemps" wrong  ) that the French pronunciation for "en-" was more like on- than ahn-. Is this a transpondial thing? We never pronounce the "-lope" on the end in the French style, which makes me wonder if word endings get assimilated first. Anyway, it'd always be an EN-veh-lope to me. To my mind, as words of French origin become fully absorbed into English it comes across as increasingly pretentious resuscitating French sounding bits (poshification again). My practice is mirrored on the other side of the Channel - the French pronounce "football" as a French word, for instance. This reminds me of garage = gar-idj or gar-ahhj. Though that's another can of worms, so forget I said it. 
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En as in awning. When I learned French back in the thirties, there was a very fine
system of phonetic symbols that was marvelously helpful. A crime that some many
othes infereior versions have been prepetrated as to make all of them useless.
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Carpal Tunnel
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like WO'N-- i say both, but Shona, don't think you are going to get away with
This reminds me of garage = gar-idj or gar-ahhj. Though that's another can of worms, so forget I said it.
the first is the UK way of saying the word, the second the US.. and the rest of the world will have to weigh in for itself. I have never heard garage as gar-idj except on imported (UK) television. but i would say car idj for carriage. but that d is really very, very soft.
garage is almost grer ahhj (almost a growlying sound at the be beginning not a gar (like a gar fish, or to rhyme with car))
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En as in awning
That'd definitely not right in terms of how Brits say "awning" (aw sound like "lawn", "prawn", "born" almost).
The en- sound in envelope in French, spoken by the French, is the same as the -en- sound in lent ("slow"). Or as in entre ("between"), come to think of it. Same applies to most "-en-" words in French that spring to mind. The sound is much much more like "on" than "ahn" or "awn".
I suspect there are Transpondial vowel sound differences making their presence felt here.
Or maybe I'm just plain wrong, and my memory/awareness of French is failing me.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear fishonabike: Ax, shucks. I'm in awe of your awesome erudition.
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the first is the UK way of saying the word, the second the US.. Actually both pronunciations are used in the UK, Helen, just by different bunches of people. It's partly a regional thing, and certainly used to be a "class" thing. I suspect that people over here who say "gar-idj" (yeah, and accepted that the opposite is "gar-aaj" without a d) would also pronounce cinema as ending with "-uh" rather than "-aa". At least I do.  Be interesting to see other Brit responses here.
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I'm in awe of your awesome eruditionThere are times when we could really do with the ability to record sound files on this Board. Although I think I've got just the tone and pronunciation of this one. 
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Interesting you should bring this up just now, as my youngest was just asking this question this past week.
Like others, I've oscillated in my own pronunciation of this word.
k
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East Coast-US: gah-rarj...
formerly known as etaoin...
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old hand
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I'd like to address this bit:
Has that pronunciation changed over the years? Does it differ from how your parents pronounced "envelope"?
Yes, and yes. When I was little I was taught "ahn-velope" and now it flip-flops. There are other words I could add to this collection - I realize now my mom retains an older form of Canadian pronunciation and my pronunciation has drifted over the years since she stopped correcting my pronunciation.
I came across an audio recording made of my family interacting in 1981 and I was fascinated with two things on that tape: (1) my pronunciation of "again" and "been" has, in many contexts, shifted to the USn version [something which I am now actively trying to change, if only to assert some small personal sovereignty over my language], and (2) my mother sounds exactly the same as she always has, both in her accent and in the fact that she spoke to us kids as if we were adults.
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My daughter and I love chuckling at my dad's pronunciations. Here are two examples:
Morning--Daddy says, "Moanin'"
Sports--He says, "Spoats"
He has the prettiest baritone speaking voice. I'll listen in more (moe) carefully and see what other ones I can pick up...
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Pooh-Bah
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I'll agree with shona that both pronunciations of garage are used over here. There is some degree of class differentiation (-ahj being "posher") but that is fading in these more egalitarian times, thank goodness.
The major difference between the Brit version of Gar-ahj and the Merkan one is in where the stress lies. Britons put stress on the first syllabe, regardless of which pronunciation is adopted, whereas (so far as I know!) Americans put the stress on the second syllable.
As to "on-vel-ope" or "en-vel-up", I also admit to using either, probably fairly equally.
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Carpal Tunnel
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We may have discussed this before, but I forgit. How do y'all pronounce "route"? I have a feeling that rowt is uniquely Merckan, but would be glad to sit corrected.
I say root all the time except in the phrase "paper route." Then it's rowt.
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Pooh-Bah
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I'm usually pretty tolerant about transpondian pronunciation differences,as you know; however, by tolerance is pushed to the utmost limit by the use of "rowt" instead of "root"  
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root usually, though sometimes rowt sneaks in, such as "What rowt are you going to try and take?" hahahahahahaha (sorry, had a bad day, just needed to do that.)
formerly known as etaoin...
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Carpal Tunnel
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How did they pronounce route in that old television drama, "Route 66"?
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"root"
and also in the great old song.
formerly known as etaoin...
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Carpal Tunnel
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Did we get "our kicks" on "Route 66"?
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Carpal Tunnel
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get hip to this timely tip!
formerly known as etaoin...
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stranger
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stranger
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How do you pronounce "envelope"?
Hi Sparteye. I pronounce it "ahn"velope just because it has a more refined quality of sound to me when I say it that way. I'm inconsistent though. I say, "pa-sta" instead of "pah-sta" and "Maz-da" instead of "Mahz-da". I believe this is a Canadian influence as my fiance, who is American, emphatically insists on the latter enunciations of the two afore-mentioned words. Then again, there is some speculation on both our parts that he was born with the pretentious, word-pronouncing-snob gene.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Perhaps pronounced most prominently as "garidj" here:
Levon, Levon likes his money
He makes a lot they say
Spends his days counting
In a garage by the motorway
--"Levon", Elton John; lyrics by Bernie Taupin
(something about these lyrics always bugged me BTW, like Taupin was really reaching for something to fit the music in one of his weaker moments [and I'm a huge John/Taupin fan]...I like the song, but the words and scenario grate on me after awhile...like, so what?...what're you sayin' here?)
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In reply to:
Spend his days counting
In a garage by the motorway
The king was in the counting house
Counting out his money;
The queen was in the parlor
Eating bread and honey;
The maid was in the garden
Hanging out the clothes;
Along came a blackbird
And pecked off her nose.
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old hand
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Apparently the use of a as in cat rather than ah (as in what you say to the doctor), specifically in imported words (like pasta and Mazda), is a typical Canadian English-ism. I read it somewhere when I was reading about Canadian English, I just don't remember where.
I personally tend to say Italian words with Italian pronunciation, even in an English sentence, because it just sounds wrong to me any other way. (This is because I speak Italian and lived in Italy for a couple of years when I was small and linguistically impressionable.) Therefore I say pasta as pah-sta, which most people around me don't.
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My vote:
"awn"velope when I'm speaking about the item itself.
"en"velope when I'm trying to remember the correct spelling of "stationery" (meaning that with which one writes letters) as in "The station*E*ry goes in the *E*nvelope."
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stranger
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Hmm. One of those things you never think about until someone else draws attention to it. I don't think I was actually TAUGHT to make a distinction between envelop-noun and envelop-verb, but I do anyway:
AHN-velope: the noun
en-VEL-up: the verb
wordfreak in MA
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Reminds me of the story of the very handsome lawyer who was on vacation somewhere beyond yonder, and decided he'd spend some time writing letters. He hiked into town and went to the local general store, where he asked the quite delightful looking young lady running the place, "Do you keep stationery?" Her response was a giggle, followed by, "Well, at least until the last few seconds, then I get a little wild."
TEd
PS
Welcome to our hollowed halls. Sometimes they echo a bit.
TR
TEd
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stranger
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I usually say,
EN-velope: the noun
en-VEL-up: the verb
but my mother says "AHN-velope" for the noun. She also says "b-AH-th" (although she'll say "bathroom", as in "cat".)
Also, I work with a Canadian woman who says "EN-velope" for the verb, too. Is that a Canadian English-ism, Bean?
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enthusiast
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I run with the EN-crowd, but seem to be in the minority in my office, where colleagues (also Canadian, like me) tend to go with ON-velope. I've never heard the ON-start to the verb.
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Greetings and welcome, CJ. Great E-mail addy you have!
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old hand
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I think, inuodie, that for the verb I agree with boronia: I've never heard the ON-start to the verb. Therefore your Canadian colleague may be in the minority for that one.
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ON and ahn are very similar... maybe ON is just a varient...
and i think i agree, i know i use both, En-velope and Ahn-velope, would definately use envelope as a verb..(the car slowly faded from view as it was envoloped in the fog..)
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Thanks A. Lest you or anyone else concludes from my e-mail address that I'm some sort of knife wielding stalker, relax. When not enjoying the English language, I sell and service knives.
Great site here. I look forward to my eventual Old Handedness or Grand PooBah-hood, whichever comes first.
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ON and ahn are very similar...Not to UK (inner) ears, Helen. At least I don't think so (would be happy to be corrected). ahn to a Brit is more like "Ann", dwelling on the "a" sound. The "ah" is like what we say at the doctor's. The "arn" sound in "aren't" goes in a slightly more "o- in on" direction, veering towards "aw-" a bit. Difficult to distinguish from the first example, I suppose. Still a long way away from "on" though. What we need are elocution diagrams and/or sound files.
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What we need are elocution diagrams and/or sound files.
Or the IPA, mein ephew.
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stranger
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In reply to:
Also, I work with a Canadian woman who says "EN-velope" for the verb, too. Is that a Canadian English-ism, Bean?
Hi inuodie. I know your question was directed to Bean but as a citizen of Canadia myself, I can't help but shoot a comment your way: "EN-velope" pronounced as a verb is most assuredly not a typical Canadian English-ism. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's a verbal anomaly. There's my two bits ... cha-ching!
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Ah-hah, oo-arr. I need to do some reading...
Not me, fishona, I gotta finish my Rocket Scientist degree first... 
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Pooh-Bah
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I gotta finish my Rocket Scientist degree firstMy word, hev - when you have your degree and have fitted rocket-power to your Subaru I will most definitely travel down-under to see you drive it!! It will be great to see the whole track enveloped in the smoke and condensation pouring out the back of your car.
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I gotta finish my Rocket Scientist degree first...
I was hoping I could bluff that module. It's worked just fine everywhere else.
D'oh!
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Pooh-Bah
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Last time I saw you, shona, I seem to remember that you were doing some interesting research on a rocket fuel from Clontarf.
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research on a rocket fuel from ClontarfThat wasn't Rocket Science, Rhuby - that was Alchemy! And I'd hope to pass that module with flying colours.
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Pooh-Bah
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You passed OK, shona, but I guess your colours were not so much flying as drooping a bit - like those of the rest of us!
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not so much flying as drooping a bit
Yes. Not quite what you'd expect from Rocket Fuel.
But perhaps further alchemical research is required.
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Pooh-Bah
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perhaps further alchemical research is required
I'll drink to that!
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Golly, aren't we glad that Mr. Frost didn't write, "Two routes diverged in a yellow wood"?
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when you have your degree and have fitted rocket-power to your Subaru I will most definitely travel down-under to see you drive it!!
RhubyC, when I have my Rocket Science degree, and Subaru are paying me to power up their machines and drive them, I will quite happily PAY for you to come and watch me drive them. How's that for an offer...
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