Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#81130 09/19/02 12:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
of troy Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
the thread started by Dr bill, on Punjab, (which seems to be the land of the five rivers,) changed directions . but i kept thinking about it..
http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=weeklythemes&Number=81002
Mesapotamia came up, i.e., the land between the two rivers, and i thought of hippopotamus, (horse of the river, or more commonly river horse with the potumos ending meaning river.. and i wondered how river and feather had the same root -- and looked it up, here is the link,
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE405.html
and wow, what a list of words !
The commonality seems to be rapid movement -- (to fly, to rush,) and from there many movement words, and feather related words... ) and while there are many links, i can think of one or two words related to the root that are not listed.. and i suspect others can add more! but even the ones what are listed , offer a wealth of fun.

what does panache Dash, Verve have to do with ptomaine a nitrogenous organic compound produced by bacterial putrefaction ?

the text below, is incomplete, since images of some of the symbols used don't copy well.. and the original has many links..

Pet(symbol)-
Also pet- (oldest form *pet1-). To rush, fly. Variant *pte1-, contracted to *pt-. Derivatives include feather, compete, perpetual, ptomaine, symptom, and hippopotamus. 1. Suffixed form *pet-r-. feather, from Old English fether, feather, from Germanic *fethr, feather. 2. –petal, petition, petulant; appetite, compete, impetigo, impetuous, impetus, perpetual, repeat, from Latin petere, to go toward, seek. 3. Suffixed form *pet-n-. panache, pen1, penna, pennate, pennon, pin, pinna, pinnacle, pinnate, pinnati-, pinnule; empennage, from Latin penna, pinna, feather, wing. 4. Suffixed form *pet-ro- in compound *aku-petro- (see ku-). 5. Suffixed form *pet-yo-. propitious, from Latin propitius, favorable, gracious, originally a religious term meaning “falling or rushing forward,” hence “eager,” “well-disposed” (said of the gods; pr-, forward; see per1). 6. Suffixed zero-grade form *pt-ero-. –pter; acanthopterygian, aminopterin, apteryx, archaeopteryx, coleopteran, dipteral, mecopteran, orthopteran, peripteral, plecopteran, pteridology, pterygoid, sauropterygian, from Greek pteron, feather, wing, and pterux, wing. 7. Suffixed zero-grade form *pt-ilo-. coleoptile, from Greek ptilon, soft feathers, down, plume. 8. Suffixed variant form *pt-no-. stearoptene, from Greek ptnos, winged, flying. 9. Reduplicated form *pi-pt-. ptomaine, ptosis; asymptote, peripeteia, proptosis, symptom, from Greek piptein, to fall, with verbal adjective pttos (< pt-to-), falling, fallen, and nominal derivatives ptsis (< *pt-ti-), a fall, and ptm (< *pt-m), a fall, fallen body, corpse. 10. O-grade form *pot-. hippopotamus, potamology, from Greek potamos “rushing water,” river (-amo-, Greek suffix). 11. Suffixed form *pet-tro-. talipot, from Sanskrit pattram, feather, leaf. (Pokorny 2. pet- 825.)


#81131 09/19/02 01:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Dear of troy: A fabulous find. Worth a lot of time to read and re-read. I hadn't seen "ptomaine"
for a long time. Before bacteria were discovered, it was thought some kinds of food poisoning
were due to breakdown of proteins, and called "ptomaine poisoning." My father had a
Mrs. Malaprop complain to him that she had "pantomime poisoning."
I expect to spend a lot of time going over that goldmine again. Thanks, of troy.



#81132 09/20/02 01:09 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,510
Likes: 1
W
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,510
Likes: 1
Is "potable water" somewhat redundant, then? Maybe not, I suppose, if compared to standing/stagnant water. unless it means it can be carted about from place to place down south


#81133 09/20/02 10:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Or is potable water water that you can put into a river?

Different roots: Potable from Latin potare, to drink, traces back to PIE poi-, to drink. The Greek traces back to the PIE root pet-, to rush, fly.


#81134 09/20/02 11:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
W
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Yeah, some people fly to drink on Friday afternoons--happy hours with potable concoctions.


#81135 09/20/02 11:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
of troy Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
re:--happy hours with potable concoctions.

More often called potent potables!

and Wof, potable water is often not redundent. at road construction sites, they some times have a tank (truck) with water to wash down the road, and another smaller tank of potable water. and good quality garden hoses can deliver potable water --but sometimes cheap ones are not safe to drink from and so labeled.


#81136 09/20/02 12:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Try drinking sea water and then you'll appreciate potable water.


#81137 09/21/02 03:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,510
Likes: 1
W
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,510
Likes: 1
What I meant by "redundant" was the rendering of potable water as "water-of-the-river water." Certainly drinkable water, as opposed to keep-the-dust-down-on-the-road water, is a valid distinction.

Haven't thought of that usage in a long time though (warm thoughts emoticon); I must have stayed too close to big cities for too long, and haven't seen any dirt roads in the summertime lately...


#81138 09/21/02 07:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
"water-of-the-river water."

Aha! My misunderstanding was correct after all!


#81139 09/21/02 08:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
This week's theme was words that have changed their meaning. "Panache" is surely one
of those. My dictionary says:dashing elegance of manner; carefree, spirited self-confidence or style; flamboyance.
One feather in your cap won't do it. You have to be confident everybody knows you have had
many dozens of them in the past.



#81140 09/22/02 12:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
A
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
A
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Maybe potable came to mean safe to drink back when rivers were clean enough to drink from? Hence river water was safe to consume as opposed to sea water which didn't go down so well. Just guessing.


#81141 09/22/02 01:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
I wonder if feather and fledge are related etymologically, since both are related to flying.
I haven't been able to find any confirmation. Can you?

Edit: I looked ;up "fledge" in AHD, and it gives as first meaning, to take care of a young bird
until it is ready to fly. That reminded me of German word "pflegen" meaning to take care of.
I wonder what the roots of "pflegen" are.


#81142 09/23/02 02:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
A very intersting linkage, indeed--thanks, Helen. But--what on earth does "zero-grade form" mean, please?


#81143 09/23/02 02:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Dear Jackie: Of troy posted 10. O-grade form. Letter capital O, not zero. Meaning the
words starting p followed by o.


#81144 09/23/02 03:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 8
T
stranger
Offline
stranger
T
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 8

#81145 09/23/02 03:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Okay, now I know what an o-grade word is, too--thanks, Dr. Bill. Um--so, a zero-grade word is, like, the first one? In a series, I mean? Like in England where the first floor is the zeroth floor?

EDIT Yi! In the time it took me to write the above, the whole post I was responding to vanished! Wee-oo-EE-oo...

#81146 09/23/02 05:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
PIE roots generally have an e in them somewhere.
For example, the root for liberty is leudh-. The O grade form would replace the e with an o giving us *loudh-; the zero grade form would dispense with the e entirely giving us *ludh-


#81147 09/24/02 08:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
F
veteran
Offline
veteran
F
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
Like in England where the first floor is the zeroth floor?

Eh? Does this mean that USns call what we call the "Ground Floor" the First Floor, with what we have marked on a lift as a "G" marked on a USn lift by a "1"?



#81148 09/24/02 09:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
USns call what we call the "Ground Floor" the First Floor

You got it, wot?


#81149 09/24/02 09:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,510
Likes: 1
W
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,510
Likes: 1
Precisely. And the French call it the rez-de-chaussez, as I recall, though I never looked up the literal meaning.
A rare US building will have both, but usually there are extenuating circumstances, such as the building being built on a hill so both floors are on the ground...

But in general, in the US, when you walk off the street and onto an elevator you have gotten in at the first floor, which is also the ground floor, and may have either a "G" or a "1" on the button. (As well as the mandated star to tell you that's where the exit to street is.)


#81150 09/24/02 09:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
F
veteran
Offline
veteran
F
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
Live and learn!

So the lift (sorry, elevator) buttons go G/1,2,3,4,5 where ours go G,1,2,3,4.

Naturally this strikes me as equally weird to our arrangement striking you. Errr, or something.

How many floors in this hypothetical building, BTW?



#81151 09/24/02 09:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
How many floors in this hypothetical building?

Depends, you counting the basement(s)?


#81152 09/24/02 09:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
S
sjm Offline
old hand
Offline
old hand
S
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
How many floors in this hypothetical building, BTW?

What do you get if you multiply six by nine?


#81153 09/25/02 02:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
J
old hand
Offline
old hand
J
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
What do you get if you multiply six by nine?

lemme guess . . .42?


#81154 09/25/02 03:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
S
sjm Offline
old hand
Offline
old hand
S
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
>Lemme guess . . .42?

Bingo! Unless, of course, one is triskaidekaphobic.


#81155 09/25/02 05:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
D
addict
Offline
addict
D
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
>Lemme guess . . .42?

Bingo! Unless, of course, one is triskaidekaphobic.


Or merely working in the ordinary regular everyday base 10.


#81156 09/25/02 11:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
F
veteran
Offline
veteran
F
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
you counting the basement(s)?

Nope.

Just:
G/1,2,3,4

Actually I'm going to have to check on the Brit interpretation of G,1,2,3!



#81157 09/25/02 12:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Bingo! Unless, of course, one is triskaidekaphobic.

You got it, sjm. I used to work on the 14th floor in NYC and it always confused me.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering if the US is the *only country where the first floor is called the ground floor. After having lived in Europe and Brazil, that still confuses me, too.


#81158 09/25/02 01:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
B
old hand
Offline
old hand
B
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
Does Canada count as a country [I mean that jokingly of course]? The floor appellation is the same here as in the US. With a strange exception - at both universities I'm familiar with, in very different parts of the country, the ground floor is the 200 floor. So the next one up has rooms number 300, and so on. The 100 floor is the basement. Argh!


#81159 09/26/02 04:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
D
dxb Offline
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
D
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
The floor appellation is the same here as in the US

I was in Montreal a couple of weeks back and they used RDC for Rez de Chaussee!


#81160 09/27/02 07:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
J
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
J
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
I'm sure we discussed this is the long distant past and someone found a reference that in fact Europe (including the UK) used to use the 1,2,3 system and changed to "ground floor" at some point, whereas the USA (and presumably Canada, didn't).

Edit: Here it is -
From Lucy:
My rather elderly Shorter Oxford gives the following:
First-floor. 1663.
1. The floor next above the ground floor 1865.
2. The ground floor. Now only U.S.


http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=2056

#81161 09/27/02 08:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
F
veteran
Offline
veteran
F
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
From Jo's ref, courtesy of wsieber:


The change probably happened when the elevator-makers expanded their business from Great Britain to the European Continent. German "Stock" and French "Etage" intrinsically mean a plane above the ground, so "1.Stock" never meant anything else than the first "elevated" floor.


That makes sense, and explains the difference well.

OK, Jo, so how many floors would Brits say my hypothetical building has, i.e. G,1,2,3,4 (USn G/1,2,3,4,5)?

Check the whited out text below after you've decided!

I think it might be four floors, discounting ground floor


#81162 09/27/02 10:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
B
old hand
Offline
old hand
B
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
I was in Montreal a couple of weeks back and they used RDC for Rez de Chaussee!

Well, there are a lot of things in Quebec that are different than in the rest of Canada. [massive understatement] That is why it is good (in general) that belMarduk is aBoard, she can correct me if I over-generalize, my experience being limited to the west and far-east of Canada. In this case it's dxb I should thank for pointing that out.


#81163 09/27/02 05:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
I was in Montreal a couple of weeks back
You were THAT close to me, and didn't run down here to say hello?! Ohhhhhhh, I am hurt hurt hurt! ;-) Whatever can you do to make it up to me? ...


#81164 09/28/02 01:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
J
old hand
Offline
old hand
J
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
at both universities I'm familiar with, in very different parts of the country, the ground floor is the 200 floor.

You think that's odd? From what I've heard, at my university all of the buildings, except the dorms and older buildings I think, have floor systems based on the football stadium. Apparently all of the 100 floors of the buildings are at the same elevation as the playing field, which is actually sunk down in a small valley. It's a pretty hilly campus, so some of the buildings don't even have a 100 floor. The design school, where all of my classes are, doesn't have one and the 200 level is a basement. The building is so sprawling that there are entrances (to ground outside) on floors 3, 4, 5 and 6.


#81165 09/28/02 01:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
The building is so sprawling that there are entrances (to ground outside) on floors 3, 4, 5 and 6.
And you chose to attend this school?? It sounds like a not-so-fun house maze.



#81166 09/28/02 03:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
of troy Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
my son started college at Carnegie Mellon U, (CMU) in Pittsburgh, and there was a similar building.. it was built into the hill side.. on one side you entered on the first floor, and the floors were not that big( 8 classrooms either side of the center hall.) on upper levels there were progressively more class room and offices.. till you got to the six floor, where, the floor space was more than double what it was on the first floor, and you could exit out to ground level on the top of the hill! this end of the building has 6 more floors..

the shape of the building was like a set of stairs.. each of the first 5 floors had a window less "basement' like area at the far end the was used for storage or other things that required dark (one was a small movie theater) it was an interesting use of the land, but strange to enter a building on the sixth floor!


#81167 09/29/02 11:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
J
old hand
Offline
old hand
J
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
there was a similar building

About how similar? My school looks like this: http://said.uc.edu/information/general.php?content=look&lookImage=1



Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
CLEARLY a case of "Do as I say, not as I do." Sorry, Jazzo, but I find nothing redeeming about the building. I am particularly disenchanted by the institutional look of the hanging fluorescent light fixtures and the monochrome theme.



TEd
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
J
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
J
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
>My school looks like this

Well if you can't trust an architect to draw a straight line ...

I like your building, Jazzo, it's better than many institutional boxes.

The top of my "to visit list" is this one -

[url]www.guggenheim-bilbao.es/ingles/edificio/el_edificio.htm[/ur]


Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
J
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
J
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Whilst looking up "interesting" buildings, I spotted this:

http://www.guggenheimlasvegas.org/herm_home.html

It looks like they are staring to put "real" things in Los Vegas - whatever will they do next - swap the Luxor Hotel for a real pyramid? Put the real Statue of Libery on temporary display.

If there was one thing that I could trust in life was that if I saw a rock in Las Vegas it was bound to be hollow. Whatever next?


Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Statue of Libery

Patience or Fortitude?


Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Patience or Fortitude?

Or Shirley.


Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
J
old hand
Offline
old hand
J
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
TEd, the outside of the building is certainly not monochromatic. We DAAPers get made fun of for going to school in a pink (and other light colors) building. Eisenman, the architect (duh) is one of the premier US architects today. He has a notable building on the Ohio State campus as well. His style can loosely be described as deconstructivist, breaking down the historical paradigms of the field. The building, they claim, has no right angles (bull) and it curves around the older building up the hill and creates a large atrium like area in the middle. This area, which includes the "Grand Stair" is the main meeting place. Many meetings and classes are held on the stair and in the atrium cafeteria. The reason for all of the white is to accent the artwork that is frequently displayed. And he did, knowing the inhabitants, intentionally incorporate a couple badly designed aspects, like a confusing flow pattern and a column right in the middle of your way when you go up one staircase. Another complaint that many people have is that he said from the start that it would only last about 10 years (disposable architecture). Right now it's 6 or 7 years old and still in great shape. I guess they're keeping up with repairs well. Anyway, it's obviously a matter of opinion. I happen to like going to school in such a note-worthy building.

And Jo, we have one of those on campus too: http://vontz.uc.edu/ My dad works there.


#81174 10/01/02 06:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Helen of troy will get my Patience or Fortitude? joke even if no one else does.


#81175 10/01/02 06:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
if no one else does

I didn't even get it.


#81176 10/01/02 06:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
of troy Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
OP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Patience or Fortitude?

i would have to swear on a stack of bibles (most definately lower case b in bibles) that i would be lion if i said i didn't..

of course Patience or Fortitude can be reproduced, (but its a bit tricky on account of them both being males) but so much of their personalities come from years of living where they do... and besides, they might be bored on The Strip. its got plenty of flash but well, its not quite the same view Patience or Fortitude are used to.


#81177 10/01/02 06:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
hehehe... Toldja.


#81178 10/02/02 07:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
J
jmh Offline
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
J
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
>Libery

Libery - isn't that how you pronounce it?

Anyway, who needs Patience and Fortitude when you have Siegfried and Roy.



Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,912
Posts229,283
Members9,179
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
TRIALNERRA, befuddledmind, KILL_YOUR_SUV, Heather_Turey, Standy
9,179 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 442 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,542
wofahulicodoc 10,510
LukeJavan8 9,916
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2024 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5