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the thread started by Dr bill, on Punjab, (which seems to be the land of the five rivers,) changed directions . but i kept thinking about it.. http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=weeklythemes&Number=81002Mesapotamia came up, i.e., the land between the two rivers, and i thought of hippopotamus, (horse of the river, or more commonly river horse with the potumos ending meaning river.. and i wondered how river and feather had the same root -- and looked it up, here is the link, http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE405.htmland wow, what a list of words ! The commonality seems to be rapid movement -- (to fly, to rush,) and from there many movement words, and feather related words... ) and while there are many links, i can think of one or two words related to the root that are not listed.. and i suspect others can add more! but even the ones what are listed , offer a wealth of fun. what does panache Dash, Verve have to do with ptomaine a nitrogenous organic compound produced by bacterial putrefaction ? the text below, is incomplete, since images of some of the symbols used don't copy well.. and the original has many links.. Pet(symbol)- Also pet- (oldest form *pet1-). To rush, fly. Variant *pte1-, contracted to *pt-. Derivatives include feather, compete, perpetual, ptomaine, symptom, and hippopotamus. 1. Suffixed form *pet-r-. feather, from Old English fether, feather, from Germanic *fethr, feather. 2. –petal, petition, petulant; appetite, compete, impetigo, impetuous, impetus, perpetual, repeat, from Latin petere, to go toward, seek. 3. Suffixed form *pet-n-. panache, pen1, penna, pennate, pennon, pin, pinna, pinnacle, pinnate, pinnati-, pinnule; empennage, from Latin penna, pinna, feather, wing. 4. Suffixed form *pet-ro- in compound *aku-petro- (see ku-). 5. Suffixed form *pet-yo-. propitious, from Latin propitius, favorable, gracious, originally a religious term meaning “falling or rushing forward,” hence “eager,” “well-disposed” (said of the gods; pr-, forward; see per1). 6. Suffixed zero-grade form *pt-ero-. –pter; acanthopterygian, aminopterin, apteryx, archaeopteryx, coleopteran, dipteral, mecopteran, orthopteran, peripteral, plecopteran, pteridology, pterygoid, sauropterygian, from Greek pteron, feather, wing, and pterux, wing. 7. Suffixed zero-grade form *pt-ilo-. coleoptile, from Greek ptilon, soft feathers, down, plume. 8. Suffixed variant form *pt-no-. stearoptene, from Greek ptnos, winged, flying. 9. Reduplicated form *pi-pt-. ptomaine, ptosis; asymptote, peripeteia, proptosis, symptom, from Greek piptein, to fall, with verbal adjective pttos (< pt-to-), falling, fallen, and nominal derivatives ptsis (< *pt-ti-), a fall, and ptm (< *pt-m), a fall, fallen body, corpse. 10. O-grade form *pot-. hippopotamus, potamology, from Greek potamos “rushing water,” river (-amo-, Greek suffix). 11. Suffixed form *pet-tro-. talipot, from Sanskrit pattram, feather, leaf. (Pokorny 2. pet- 825.)
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Dear of troy: A fabulous find. Worth a lot of time to read and re-read. I hadn't seen "ptomaine" for a long time. Before bacteria were discovered, it was thought some kinds of food poisoning were due to breakdown of proteins, and called "ptomaine poisoning." My father had a Mrs. Malaprop complain to him that she had "pantomime poisoning." I expect to spend a lot of time going over that goldmine again. Thanks, of troy.
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Is "potable water" somewhat redundant, then? Maybe not, I suppose, if compared to standing/stagnant water. unless it means it can be carted about from place to place down south
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Or is potable water water that you can put into a river?
Different roots: Potable from Latin potare, to drink, traces back to PIE poi-, to drink. The Greek traces back to the PIE root pet-, to rush, fly.
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Yeah, some people fly to drink on Friday afternoons--happy hours with potable concoctions.
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re:--happy hours with potable concoctions.
More often called potent potables!
and Wof, potable water is often not redundent. at road construction sites, they some times have a tank (truck) with water to wash down the road, and another smaller tank of potable water. and good quality garden hoses can deliver potable water --but sometimes cheap ones are not safe to drink from and so labeled.
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Try drinking sea water and then you'll appreciate potable water.
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What I meant by "redundant" was the rendering of potable water as "water-of-the-river water." Certainly drinkable water, as opposed to keep-the-dust-down-on-the-road water, is a valid distinction.
Haven't thought of that usage in a long time though (warm thoughts emoticon); I must have stayed too close to big cities for too long, and haven't seen any dirt roads in the summertime lately...
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"water-of-the-river water."
Aha! My misunderstanding was correct after all!
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This week's theme was words that have changed their meaning. "Panache" is surely one of those. My dictionary says:dashing elegance of manner; carefree, spirited self-confidence or style; flamboyance. One feather in your cap won't do it. You have to be confident everybody knows you have had many dozens of them in the past.
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Maybe potable came to mean safe to drink back when rivers were clean enough to drink from? Hence river water was safe to consume as opposed to sea water which didn't go down so well. Just guessing.
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I wonder if feather and fledge are related etymologically, since both are related to flying. I haven't been able to find any confirmation. Can you?
Edit: I looked ;up "fledge" in AHD, and it gives as first meaning, to take care of a young bird until it is ready to fly. That reminded me of German word "pflegen" meaning to take care of. I wonder what the roots of "pflegen" are.
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A very intersting linkage, indeed--thanks, Helen. But--what on earth does "zero-grade form" mean, please?
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Dear Jackie: Of troy posted 10. O-grade form. Letter capital O, not zero. Meaning the words starting p followed by o.
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Okay, now I know what an o-grade word is, too--thanks, Dr. Bill. Um--so, a zero-grade word is, like, the first one? In a series, I mean? Like in England where the first floor is the zeroth floor? EDIT Yi! In the time it took me to write the above, the whole post I was responding to vanished! Wee-oo-EE-oo...
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PIE roots generally have an e in them somewhere. For example, the root for liberty is leudh-. The O grade form would replace the e with an o giving us *loudh-; the zero grade form would dispense with the e entirely giving us *ludh-
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Like in England where the first floor is the zeroth floor?
Eh? Does this mean that USns call what we call the "Ground Floor" the First Floor, with what we have marked on a lift as a "G" marked on a USn lift by a "1"?
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USns call what we call the "Ground Floor" the First Floor
You got it, wot?
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Precisely. And the French call it the rez-de-chaussez, as I recall, though I never looked up the literal meaning. A rare US building will have both, but usually there are extenuating circumstances, such as the building being built on a hill so both floors are on the ground...
But in general, in the US, when you walk off the street and onto an elevator you have gotten in at the first floor, which is also the ground floor, and may have either a "G" or a "1" on the button. (As well as the mandated star to tell you that's where the exit to street is.)
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Live and learn!
So the lift (sorry, elevator) buttons go G/1,2,3,4,5 where ours go G,1,2,3,4.
Naturally this strikes me as equally weird to our arrangement striking you. Errr, or something.
How many floors in this hypothetical building, BTW?
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How many floors in this hypothetical building?
Depends, you counting the basement(s)?
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How many floors in this hypothetical building, BTW?
What do you get if you multiply six by nine?
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old hand
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What do you get if you multiply six by nine?
lemme guess . . .42?
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old hand
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>Lemme guess . . .42?
Bingo! Unless, of course, one is triskaidekaphobic.
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>Lemme guess . . .42?
Bingo! Unless, of course, one is triskaidekaphobic.
Or merely working in the ordinary regular everyday base 10.
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you counting the basement(s)?
Nope.
Just: G/1,2,3,4
Actually I'm going to have to check on the Brit interpretation of G,1,2,3!
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Bingo! Unless, of course, one is triskaidekaphobic.
You got it, sjm. I used to work on the 14th floor in NYC and it always confused me.
Meanwhile, I'm wondering if the US is the *only country where the first floor is called the ground floor. After having lived in Europe and Brazil, that still confuses me, too.
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Does Canada count as a country [I mean that jokingly of course]? The floor appellation is the same here as in the US. With a strange exception - at both universities I'm familiar with, in very different parts of the country, the ground floor is the 200 floor. So the next one up has rooms number 300, and so on. The 100 floor is the basement. Argh!
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The floor appellation is the same here as in the US
I was in Montreal a couple of weeks back and they used RDC for Rez de Chaussee!
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I'm sure we discussed this is the long distant past and someone found a reference that in fact Europe (including the UK) used to use the 1,2,3 system and changed to "ground floor" at some point, whereas the USA (and presumably Canada, didn't). Edit: Here it is - From Lucy: My rather elderly Shorter Oxford gives the following: First-floor. 1663. 1. The floor next above the ground floor 1865. 2. The ground floor. Now only U.S.http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=2056
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From Jo's ref, courtesy of wsieber:
The change probably happened when the elevator-makers expanded their business from Great Britain to the European Continent. German "Stock" and French "Etage" intrinsically mean a plane above the ground, so "1.Stock" never meant anything else than the first "elevated" floor.
That makes sense, and explains the difference well.
OK, Jo, so how many floors would Brits say my hypothetical building has, i.e. G,1,2,3,4 (USn G/1,2,3,4,5)?
Check the whited out text below after you've decided!
I think it might be four floors, discounting ground floor
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I was in Montreal a couple of weeks back and they used RDC for Rez de Chaussee!Well, there are a lot of things in Quebec that are different than in the rest of Canada. [massive understatement] That is why it is good (in general) that belMarduk is aBoard, she can correct me if I over-generalize, my experience being limited to the west and far-east of Canada. In this case it's dxb I should thank for pointing that out.
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I was in Montreal a couple of weeks back You were THAT close to me, and didn't run down here to say hello?! Ohhhhhhh, I am hurt hurt hurt! ;-) Whatever can you do to make it up to me? ...
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at both universities I'm familiar with, in very different parts of the country, the ground floor is the 200 floor.
You think that's odd? From what I've heard, at my university all of the buildings, except the dorms and older buildings I think, have floor systems based on the football stadium. Apparently all of the 100 floors of the buildings are at the same elevation as the playing field, which is actually sunk down in a small valley. It's a pretty hilly campus, so some of the buildings don't even have a 100 floor. The design school, where all of my classes are, doesn't have one and the 200 level is a basement. The building is so sprawling that there are entrances (to ground outside) on floors 3, 4, 5 and 6.
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The building is so sprawling that there are entrances (to ground outside) on floors 3, 4, 5 and 6.And you chose to attend this school?? It sounds like a not-so-fun house maze.
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my son started college at Carnegie Mellon U, (CMU) in Pittsburgh, and there was a similar building.. it was built into the hill side.. on one side you entered on the first floor, and the floors were not that big( 8 classrooms either side of the center hall.) on upper levels there were progressively more class room and offices.. till you got to the six floor, where, the floor space was more than double what it was on the first floor, and you could exit out to ground level on the top of the hill! this end of the building has 6 more floors..
the shape of the building was like a set of stairs.. each of the first 5 floors had a window less "basement' like area at the far end the was used for storage or other things that required dark (one was a small movie theater) it was an interesting use of the land, but strange to enter a building on the sixth floor!
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CLEARLY a case of "Do as I say, not as I do." Sorry, Jazzo, but I find nothing redeeming about the building. I am particularly disenchanted by the institutional look of the hanging fluorescent light fixtures and the monochrome theme.
TEd
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Pooh-Bah
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>My school looks like this
Well if you can't trust an architect to draw a straight line ...
I like your building, Jazzo, it's better than many institutional boxes.
The top of my "to visit list" is this one -
[url]www.guggenheim-bilbao.es/ingles/edificio/el_edificio.htm[/ur]
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Whilst looking up "interesting" buildings, I spotted this: http://www.guggenheimlasvegas.org/herm_home.htmlIt looks like they are staring to put "real" things in Los Vegas - whatever will they do next - swap the Luxor Hotel for a real pyramid? Put the real Statue of Libery on temporary display. If there was one thing that I could trust in life was that if I saw a rock in Las Vegas it was bound to be hollow. Whatever next?
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Statue of Libery
Patience or Fortitude?
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Patience or Fortitude?
Or Shirley.
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TEd, the outside of the building is certainly not monochromatic. We DAAPers get made fun of for going to school in a pink (and other light colors) building. Eisenman, the architect (duh) is one of the premier US architects today. He has a notable building on the Ohio State campus as well. His style can loosely be described as deconstructivist, breaking down the historical paradigms of the field. The building, they claim, has no right angles (bull) and it curves around the older building up the hill and creates a large atrium like area in the middle. This area, which includes the "Grand Stair" is the main meeting place. Many meetings and classes are held on the stair and in the atrium cafeteria. The reason for all of the white is to accent the artwork that is frequently displayed. And he did, knowing the inhabitants, intentionally incorporate a couple badly designed aspects, like a confusing flow pattern and a column right in the middle of your way when you go up one staircase. Another complaint that many people have is that he said from the start that it would only last about 10 years (disposable architecture). Right now it's 6 or 7 years old and still in great shape. I guess they're keeping up with repairs well. Anyway, it's obviously a matter of opinion. I happen to like going to school in such a note-worthy building. And Jo, we have one of those on campus too: http://vontz.uc.edu/ My dad works there.
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Helen of troy will get my Patience or Fortitude? joke even if no one else does.
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if no one else does
I didn't even get it.
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Patience or Fortitude?
i would have to swear on a stack of bibles (most definately lower case b in bibles) that i would be lion if i said i didn't..
of course Patience or Fortitude can be reproduced, (but its a bit tricky on account of them both being males) but so much of their personalities come from years of living where they do... and besides, they might be bored on The Strip. its got plenty of flash but well, its not quite the same view Patience or Fortitude are used to.
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hehehe... Toldja.
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Pooh-Bah
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>Libery
Libery - isn't that how you pronounce it?
Anyway, who needs Patience and Fortitude when you have Siegfried and Roy.
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