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#70094 05/16/02 07:53 PM
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I was reading a long article about Tolkien, and ran across this: what is "tweeness:?

... the un-Tolkien-like tweeness of JK Rowling's coinages ...


#70095 05/16/02 07:56 PM
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To this USn it brings to mind coyness or cuteness, but let's see what our cross-ponders have to say.


#70096 05/16/02 09:12 PM
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Howye fokes

I bit me tongue yesterday, ya know and had a small prob with me speech.

Anyways, re "tweeness" - this may not be the exact meanen - but I'd say it's akin ta "cheesy".

Be seein ya
GT


#70097 05/16/02 10:04 PM
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Twee is cutesy - but not baby-cute, more try-hard-pathetic cute [dare I mention Britney Spears??] ... it's also pretty close to kitch, being a goody-goody, all those fairly derogatory things.

If the quote at the bottom of your post, bill, is the place you originally got it - i would have to agree and say that's a pretty good understanding of the word!

gandalf beats harry any day


#70098 05/17/02 06:55 AM
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"Twee" is certainly a word I know and use - I was brought up by English grandparents and they mostly used it in the phrase "prim and twee". To us it has less of a "cute" connotation, rather a kind of stuffy (?proper) prissyness.

Mind you - I have never seen tweeness before.


#70099 05/17/02 12:15 PM
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Zooty (sorry!)--nice to see you! A few months ago, somebody here, and I'm thinking it was Bingley, said that he (?) was brought up where twee was supposed to be baby-talk for sweet--as in so overly-cute/sweet it makes you sick. I gave up on Searching, after hitting three posts that gave me between.


#70100 05/17/02 12:23 PM
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I had a friend at one time who always referred to the "tweeosity factor", usually used in reference to things like period drama, blue rinses, twin sets and pearls, that kind of thing.



The idiot also known as Capfka ...
#70101 05/17/02 12:59 PM
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Many a cute little bird is born into tweeness.



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#70102 05/18/02 01:49 PM
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twee does mean cutesy but in a very grannyish and prim sense. lace doilies, ornaments, anything home counties or olde-worlde.


#70103 05/18/02 03:32 PM
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Would twee be akin to quaint?


#70104 05/18/02 03:35 PM
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Well, I'll answer my own question. Just checked out good ol' OneLook and found this on MW:

One entry found for twee.


Main Entry: twee
Pronunciation: 'twE
Function: adjective
Etymology: baby-talk alteration of sweet
Date: 1905
chiefly British : affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint <such a theme might sound twee or corny -- Times Literary Supplement>


Now what was that prisms and prunes expression we were discussing a while back?


#70105 05/18/02 03:38 PM
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Dear WW: I think perhps "precious" would be closer than "quaint"

very fastidious, overrefined, or affected, as in behavior, language, etc.

#70106 05/18/02 03:45 PM
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Here's some more listed synonyms:

Synonyms
dainty mincing niminy-piminy prim


These are from a url that's too long to post and I don't know where to go to the place that shortens 'em.

Niminy-priminy? Jimminy!


#70107 05/18/02 09:54 PM
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>... the un-Tolkien-like tweeness of JK Rowling's coinages ...

A comment on the quote, Bill, not your question.

It does seems a little unfair to JK. I do get a little bored with this kind of "tall poppy" criticism (so beloved by us Brits). I want to tell people "SHE WAS WRITING A BOOK FOR PRIMARY SCHOOL CHILDREN" the fact that a few grown ups cottoned on to it is by the by. My daughter read it at the age of seven when it first came out, as did most of her class. It's a very tricky book for a seven year old.

There are twee moments, it is a boarding school book, it is OK to have crumpets with Hagrid (hi AnnaS). It links back to Mallory Towers and The Chalet School all those books that were not necessarily of any great literary value but were read by children (not always with parental approval)in the distant past when I was a child.



#70108 05/18/02 10:35 PM
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Dear jmh: I felt the "tweeness" to be more than a bit unfair . How could she be expected to make coinages with expertise of a master linguist?


#70109 05/19/02 06:52 PM
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I love Harry Potter.
I loved The Hobbit BUT a lot of Tolkein makes my head ache.
Does this mean I can never post again?



#70110 05/19/02 07:32 PM
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I've never read Harry Potter, I've never read Tolkein, and I never will.

Fantasy just holds no appeal for me anymore. Reality is just so fantastic that I'm mesmerized by it.

OK: Hit me in the head. I don't care. You do know what Dr. Johnson thought of Gulliver's Travels, don't you? And he's SuperDaddy of the Dictionary People. OK: Hit me in the head again.

Best regards,
Dub-Dub


#70111 05/19/02 07:57 PM
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Dear WW: I must humbly confess I do not know what Sam Johnston said about Gulliver's Travels.


#70112 05/19/02 08:07 PM
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Dear wwh,

Dr. Johnson disliked Gulliver. He disliked the concept. He spoke a great deal about it, so I couldn't begin to quote him, but in a nutshell, he implied that once Swift realized his fantastic idea, no real imagination or literary powers were required. What would it be like to be possessed by a land of miniature people or giants? In Johnson's mind the outcome was so predictable that the imagination didn't have to be overtaxed--I think it was the predictability factor that was one of his numerous complaints about Swift.

Honestly, whatever people read is fine with me. I just wouldn't want to be kicked off the board because I have a low tolerance for fantasy. And apparently Sam Johnson would have at least understood. But, then again, maybe Tolkein has more to offer than Swift. I'm just not tempted.

(Probably Johnson's comments on Swift are to be found somewhere in Boswell's Life of Johnson...)

Boswell regards, Now that's an author I look forward to reading again upon retirement!-,
Wordwind


#70113 05/19/02 08:35 PM
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I'd much rather read Swift's "Gulliver's Travels" than Johnson's "Rasselas (Wrassle-Ass)"
"Critics are like eunuchs, they can tell you how, but the can't do it themselves." George Jean Nathan


#70114 05/19/02 08:58 PM
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"Critics are like eunuchs, they can tell you how, but the can't do it themselves."

Everybody's a critic. Said George Washington (after noting that conflict of stars with stripe, design-wise), when Betsy Ross delivered the first US flag to him:

Look at the colors you chose!
The best you could do I suppose.
A peppermint stripe with royal blue,
The same as the British colors too.
Now how will we tell whose side is who?
Look at the colors you chose!

Why couldn't it have been puce,
Lavender over chartreuse,
Or possibly some exotic shade
A delicate orange, mauve, or jade
Instead of the choice that has been made?
Why couldn't it have been possibly cinnamon?"


-- "Stan Freberg Presents the United States of America: the Early Years" (1961)

Betsy's reply:
Everybody wants to be an art director.
Everybody wants to call the shots.
Everybody wants to be a flag dissector
Changing all my stars to polka dots.
Everybody thinks that they're the final word
On what is strictly out and what is in!
Howdja like a flag that features fleur-de-lis
On ochre corrugated tin!




#70115 05/21/02 05:52 AM
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"Critics are like eunuchs, they can tell you how, but they can't do it themselves." George Jean Nathan

"A male obstetrician is like a mechanic without a car." - One of my (female) O&G consultants.


#70116 05/21/02 01:08 PM
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some 15 years ago, a regular contributor to the NY Times Sunday magazine, wrote a very interesting column.

he was a pediatrician, and he admitted for many years, when mother's would come to him, and complain about their babies, he would say, "its just colic, they will out grow it in a few months"

then he had a kid of his own, and his kid got colic.. and suddenly, the shoe was on the other foot. Now, his sleep was disturbed, now he came home to a frustrated wife, who dumped a screaming child in his arms and demand he do something.

like many children with colic, he son continued to gain weight, and generally thrive.. but the doctor admitted, that for the first time he understood how mother could smother a baby, shake a baby, or even feed spoon full's of brandy to a baby, anything, to get it to stop crying.

I don't think that its required to for doctors to personally experience something to understand it, but... there is something about personal experience...

the doctor continued to tell mothers, "this will pass, the baby will get over it" but now he added, "Here are some things you can do for the baby, (rocking, car rides often help) and here is what you need to do for your self, since it is a very upsetting time for you.." he became more empathetic, with the mothers frustrations. it didn't do anything for the babies and their colic, but it made him a better doctor, for the mothers!



#70117 05/21/02 01:37 PM
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"Critics are like eunuchs, they can tell you how, but the can't do it themselves." George Jean Nathan


You don't have to be able to lay an egg to know when one is rotten.


#70118 05/21/02 02:01 PM
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With regard to the female O&G consultant disparaging male obstetricians, I would have liked to ask her why the females never made any effort to found a science of obstetrics, never getting beyond being midwives with no effort to record cases, accumulate knowledge, and know how to treat difficult cases.


#70119 05/21/02 02:47 PM
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You are joking, right, Dr Bill?


#70120 05/21/02 02:53 PM
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ReI would have liked to ask her why the females never made any effort to found a science of obstetrics, never getting beyond being midwives with no effort to record cases, accumulate knowledge, and know how to treat difficult cases.


How do you know they didn't? most of what the midwive's knew was total ignored by men. and the catholic church and other powers that be encourged the destruction of midwifes, and their knowlegde, since they also know about birth control, and abortions.

Many of the "treatments" for difficult cases, are so unnatural, so intrusive, so removed from woman, and the woman being in control of the birthing experience, the mid wifes wouldn't have used them any way.

i had to fight in 1973/1976 for the right to natural childbirth. (an anethesteiolgist was called "just in case" i had to pay for his time, and he attempted to give me 'gas'--when i ripped off the mask, he asked my doctor if i need to be restrained! he told me i didn't know what i was doing, he was helping me.. He (the anethetist) just presumed because he was the doctor, he knew better than me.
I had perfectly normal vaginal deliveries, i had no real complications. yes, there was pain, but by the time you got to the delivery room, 90% of the pain was in the past.. and now, at the last minute, they want to knock me out, and steal from me, the end result? My OB/gyn knew better, he told the guy, he was listening to me, and he wasn't going to do anything contrary to my wishes.. and so i remained awake, alert, and i gave birth.. consciously bringing forth my children.
many doctors have attitudes is so different from mid wives attitudes, and womans attitudes.

the newest trend is to birth with out even midwives.


#70121 05/21/02 03:07 PM
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"How do you know they didn't?" Dear of troy: That is not your usual good sense. If the midwives had been literate, they could have written books. But they didn't. They did and still do good work, but if a woman needed a Cesarian section, what then?


#70122 05/21/02 04:55 PM
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Dear Dr Bill ...Opinion: where the he** did you get the idea that midwives were all illiterates?
Sure, maybe in 1400 up to the mid-1700s many were but there are diaries and documentation from those years, by midwives that are held in private and ecclesiastical collections. Births had to be recorded and records kept! And most were stashed in the local monestary or church office.
The majority of midwives were certainly literate after the mid-1700s. They kept records and they billed their clients, in effect they ran a small business.
According to my great-aunt (who worked in medicine in early 1900s) midwives were used almost exclusively in hospitals in the mid 1800s to deliver babies and doctors were called in only when a C-section or the like was needed. And there were fewer C sections then, as midwives were so skilled in birthing! And a C section was considered a death sentance for the mother.
Things went along very well with midwives attending birth both in hospitals and at home.... until the doctors decided the women midwives were not capable.
Sorry to be abrupt but it was the propaganda by MDs that made women think a midwife wasn't a capable health provider.
In my opinion it was a matter of money.
There were medical practitioners who saw OB as an easy money maker as soon as women were having babies in hospitals -- after discovery of what caused childbed fever by Ignaz Semmeleweis -- before that, to best of my recollection, over 75 percent of women who had babies in hospitals died of "childbed fever" caused by dirty linen and doctors going direct from autopsies to examining patients with NO antiseptic procedure. They did not even wash their hands! How long did it take Lister and Semmeleweis to convince doctors that antiseptic procedures were a life and death matter? - YEARS!-
So,in tose days, fearing hospitals, women had babies at home.
Nowadays, with MDs so expensive there is a resurgence in midwifery. And now men are taking it up!
Money again!
Better read some history of midwifery, preferably written by women!

/end opinion
You really pushed my buttons on this one, Bill. Sorry for the rant ... no personal hostility intended ... this isn't the first time I've heard that statement and I just saw red!



#70123 05/21/02 05:15 PM
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Dear wow: Instead of such a long (deleted) , wouldn't it have been simpler to give author and title of an obstetrics book written by a midwife over fifty yeata ago?


#70124 05/21/02 05:45 PM
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bill go back 75 to 100 years and there weren't medical books either. Midwivery, and medicine, and law were learned from apprentiships. there weren't formal schools, and there weren't text books. even when the formal schools started (like the first medical and nursing schools) there was very little in the way of "class room" training, and 90% of the training was hands on, not read from a book. (there were lectures, but not text books!)

While the woman might have been somewhat literate, they certainly didn't have opportunites to go to formal schools (even Dr Blackwell had to fight the establishment to get into medical school..just what 100 years ago? )why would a midwife write a book? who would read it? there weren't schools for midwives. (or even schools for woman to be come Ob/Gyn's) let's not forget.. doors where closed to woman. show me the law books and the law school abraham lincoln went to or used? you can't. he read law, not text books, and he learned by working with an other lawyer as clerk. so too, women learned, by doing, and helping.
we know the iliad today, because for 1000 years before the greeks got to writing it down, it was passed on as oral knowledge. a lack of text books is not a lack of knowledge.


#70125 05/21/02 06:19 PM
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Dear of troy: I had my grandfathers obstetrical books, which I read in the attic when I was ten years oldl
The were published not too long after the Civil war. That's well over a hundred years ago, and they were far from being the first. I am not a male chauvinist. I merely point out that midwives appear to have made no attempt to gather knowledge and perpetuate it.


#70126 05/21/02 07:08 PM
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Dr bill, you know that 1) most of what women did was considered insignificant, and unimportant (and is still considered unimportant -- just look at the how the US "values" mother's contribuions as part of the gross domestic product vs. how insurance companies values the services a mother provides, and the cost of them --love being still being free)

an things are better now now than ever..

first of all, go a google of history and midwifes, and you find out, oh, they did write books.. but the books never got published, they simple were handed down. (which is in keeping with crafts learned apprenticship style.)

2) midwives, and other woman who were "healers" were considered witches (because it was an act of sin to believe anything other than god as a source of healing and health.

the catholics churches power has wanned in modern years, but in the 1500's when Pope Innocents VIII banned witches, it was a different story.
read about it in
History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom by Andrew Dickson White
Particularly -- in
CHAPTER XIII.
FROM MIRACLES TO MEDICINE.
I.  THE EARLY AND SACRED THEORIES OF DISEASE.
http://www.bookrags.com/books/hwswt/PART13.

and you can also read about hand books written by mid wives.
http://www.albany.edu/feature98/midwife/

and there are lot of other places. woman with knowledge and independance (and woman who taught that sickness was sickness, and not sinfullness, challenged men and church authority.. and paid for it with there lives.

now days we have wizzards and warlocks, but for ages and ages, witches were woman, and they were hung, burned and drowned for being witches.


#70127 05/21/02 07:16 PM
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An aside on this:

Although "deadening of pain through potions [potlatch] was known to most ancient civilizations," yet "[d]uring all this time, there was no tradition of using painkiller to relieve the pain of women going though labor. Women midwives could be accused of witchcraft if they employed such drugs. One such case occurred in 1591, when [s]he was condemned as a witch and burned alive at the Castle Hill of Edinburgh."

It was not until 1846, that ether was successfully administered as an anesthetic during an operation. In 1847, Dr. James Y. Simpson, professor of obstetrics at the University of Glasgow successfully used chloroform to relieve the suffering of a woman patient in childbirth.
[ellipses omitted]

Major controversy followed. The clergy (male) insisted that painkilling in childbirth violated God's judgment as He drove Eve from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children"). Many women (mostly past their childbearing years) argued that without the pain of delivery, a new mother would not properly bond with her baby.

Eventually, Queen Victoria announced that she wanted chloroform for her childbirth. This effectively ended any question of the propriety of the new-fangled practice.

http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/DOCTOR.TXT; scroll about 2/3 of the way down to section on Discovery of Painkiller, and Religious Opposition to "Painless" Labor


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Dear of troy: That paragraph had no bearing on the question. As a matter of fact, opiates are extremely hazadous to baby's repiration. Only recently have safe medications been found. I am unfavorably impressed by your choice of information. I am not willing to discuss it further.


#70129 05/21/02 07:44 PM
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Bill - I fear you're being a bit narrow in your thinking about this issue.

Books are one way to gather knowledge and perpetuate it, but not the only way. As Helen points out, the oral tradition is a very important way of doing this, and in fact has probably perpetuated far more knowledge over the course of our existence than books, given its much longer track record.

Midwives may not have had access to the means of producing books, whether those means be literacy, or money, or access to the educated circles that publish, or what have you. Lacking any of these key things would have required them to find other means of carrying on their knowledge.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, Dr. Bill.


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Dear Hyla: my point was simply this: A thousand years of midwives could never have made Cesarean section
possible.


#70131 05/21/02 08:26 PM
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what made Cesarean section possible was thousands of women dying, until doctors got it right.
at little as 50 years ago c-sections were life threatenting surgery. 100 years ago, a c-section was a death sentence to woman.
they became possible only because of Jenner's work on antiseptic surgry, Pastures work on germ theory, and other medical advances..

men were perfectly willing to cut up women, and if some died, so be it.. so women stayed away, until the AMA basicly outlawed mid wives, and forced woman to go to and use doctors. Now that woman have some power and say in their own lives, they are once again going back to midwives.

the medical profession has done wonders, and it has made my life longer, healthier and more pleasant in thousands of ways. I am glad not to have had small pox, or TB, or diphtheria, or to almost die from a paper cut.

I do value what doctors do. i don't think the AMA or doctors much value midwives, and what they did, or do.




#70132 05/21/02 10:50 PM
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I do value what doctors do. i don't think the AMA or doctors much value midwives, and what they did, or do.

I agree whole heartedly with Helen's statement. I too value what Doctor's do. And I am very grateful to the fine MD who keeps me on my feet and able to accomplish most of what I want to do.
But.




#70133 05/22/02 12:03 AM
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Let the record show an amicable termination of the debate has been achieved, and no flame war danger.


#70134 05/22/02 02:08 AM
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Did I start that? Could it have been avoided if I wrote...

"A male obstetrician is like a mechanic without a car." - One of my (female) O&G consultants, joking.


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Dear dpc_comfort: You did nothing wrong. But I managed to sound like a male chauvinist to of troy, and that's what (her phrase, not mine) "got her Irish up." I confessed my sins, and she forgave me.


#70136 05/22/02 06:54 AM
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Well I just thought I'd throw my hat into the caesarian ring!
Here's a little gem of trivia: The first successful documented C-section on a living woman was performed in 1500 by neither a doctor or a nurse, but a gelder - a castrater of animals! This was in Germany, where a gelder called Jacob Nufer "operated" on his own wife after none of the district surgeons or midwives could help her with a very difficult birth. The pseudo-veterinary angle of this story impresses me!
Frau Nufer survived and went on to deliver more children "naturally".
Mind you - this must have been sheer luck, as the mortality rate of the mother after a Caesar remained horrendous for centuries - still as high as 86% - 100% in England in the mid 1800s!





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