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I was watching a scene on TV the other day, but with the sound on mute, and my experience got me to thinking about non-auditory language processing.
Although I cannot interpret everything someone says based on lip reading, I can do a bit of it, and I've noticed that when I comprehend what is being said, there is no conscious process of "hmmmm ... the mouth shaped x way, so he said so-and-so ..."; rather, I "hear" what is being said immediately, just as if it had been uttered, and the words vocalize in my head just if the sounds had been uttered.
It fascinates me to have such a concrete example of the language processing of my brain, separate from auditory processing, and I am now wondering if you all have had similar experiences.
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Dear Sparteye: I wish I could lip read, because I only get about one word in ten. But I have noticed I can understand better when someone is facing me, and does not have hand in front of mouth. I must be getting some information, but not enough, from seeing lips and mouth move.
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About 17 years ago, I had an accident that left me partially, and thank goodness, temporarily, deaf. During that few months, I became very good at lip reading. I no longer need to rely on it, however, years of noise have no doubt done their toll on my hearing, and like Dr. Bill says, it is much easier for me to comprehend someone when they face me, and do not have their mouth covered. Mustaches are a nuisance, just don't tell my mustachioed hubby I said that!
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I am sitting here trying to figure out whether what I have in my head from either lip-reading or subtitles is what I would consider auditory or not. I suppose it could be, considering that I don't get a picture of the written words in my head. I guess it's the same "voice" I "hear" when I read; all books, and all of your-all's writings, have the same "voice": mine. Never mind that I know perfectly well that you don't all sound like me.
I really think there ought to be a different word for this type of processing of information; it isn't really hearing, or seeing.
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I know perfectly well that you don't all sound like me. oh, yeah? so which side of the sheep's painted black again? 'sides, you know fer sure I sound zackly like you... 
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processing of information; it isn't really hearing, or seeing
mmm, I agree with that Jackie. I believe that our brains are pattern-making and matching tools in their fundamental workings - and that these patterns then find expression through sensory outputs as a secondary function. In other words, first pattern, then specific language: hence (as per our previous descussions elsewhere) a baby growing up in a 'sign' household will make babbling 'noises' with their hands at the same precise points of development as is achieved by the growing burbles and articulations of a speaking child. The same areas of the brain are mapping outputs to two different devices but the underlying pattern analysis and recognition is common to both.
(If anyone new here is interested, there are some previous discussions on the Board - perhpaps one of our bloodhounds can LIU, since it's 4:30am here, and I gotta sleep. mmm, now dreams, that's a rich corroboration of the patterns theory...!)
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I believe that a good part of comprehension of spoken language depends on facial expressions, gestures and other body language as well as some degree of lip reading. If you have learned, or attempted to learn, a foreign language, you feel yourself really adept at it when you can understand someone on the telephone; i.e., when you can't see them.
While I don't have too much trouble understanding someone speaking French or Italian face to face, it's very difficult on the phone. Or watching a foreign-language move. As long as you can see the faces of the characters speaking, you can understand them; but if they have their backs turned, or the camera is not on their faces, or in the case of a voice-over, it's tough.
Those of you whose first language is not English -- What is your experience?
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I guess it's the same "voice" I "hear" when I read; all books, and all of your-all's writings, have the same "voice": mine. Never mind that I know perfectly well that you don't all sound like me.Now that you mention it, Jackie, I hear my own voice too when I see written words. But, if I am reading a letter written by my aunt, I hear her voice, or when I get an IM from a friend whom I have spoken to, I hear their voice. Now that I have spoken with a couple of folks on the board, I hear their voices when I read their posts. Even get their little accents going in my mind! Jackie, ya'll know what I'm talkin' 'bout?
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Yes, talking on the phone is much more difficult than face to face, and TV programmes that have been dubbed into Indonesian -- forget about it.
Bingley
Bingley
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I don't believe that this speaks directly to lip reading, but I definitely concur with BobY's assertion that a good part of comprehension of spoken language depends on facial expressions, gestures and other body language. I spent only six months in Korea, making little attempt to learn to speak the language (most of my energy went to learning to *read* Korean, so that I could identify streets, businesses, etc) - a few Korean friends came over to my apartment the night before my departure for a little party, and I surprised them and myself by keeping up perfectly with their conversation in Korean. I interjected comments periodically in English, but they were always perfectly in context with the conversation. Eventually, one friend turned to me realizing "Hey - we were speaking Korean and you understood!" It was a strange experience, but very cool. Reminded me of the movie The Thirteenth Warrior, where the main character (a Moor of some stripe) divines the language of his Viking travelling companions. Antonio Banderas, if you're reading this, I'm still waiting for you...
In my intentional studies of Spanish (as opposed to this unintentional study of Korean), the telephone thing never really occurred to me. I had confidence in my fluency when I started dreaming in Spanish.
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What about thought? The process of thinking in a certain language seems to frame thought, albeit instantaneously, on an inner sight of each word. I don't notice this if I don't stop to think about it, but whenever I ruminate about this I see the inner vision of the word gives rise to the thought. There seems to be no way around it.
It's kind of like driving. If you stop to analyse the process as you're doing it you'll see all the radar and co-ordinations involved in the act, but otherwise you just do it. Likewise, thinking is somnething you just do. But is thinking possible without a language? It must be, of course. Animals think... as evidenced by chimps, gorillas, dogs, cats, and others. Not sentience in the strictest sense, but thought nevertheless. And, of course, humans had the ability to think before language. And babies. So what is pure thought without language? Once the symbols of language are learned, it seems, thought is then always framed upon words...there's no going back.
"And in the beginning was the Word, and the Word became flesh." Perhaps this Biblical metaphor alludes to when Word was first born into thought?
Your thoughts?
The Only WO'N!
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Fiberbabe, i know exactly what you are talking about..
i am terrible with languages other than english and you can keep all your comments about how i mangle english down, please!
but i was in a small chinese take out place, and the father, (chief cook, and bottle washer) barked some orders at his daughter, who was running the register, and tucking napkins and forks into the to go lunch bags.
i looked at the father, and said "She has already put a spoon in the bag, its ok!"-- and he nearly fainted! he said something else, and i replied, "No, i don't speak chinese, i just could understand what you were saying to your daughter.." i don't know how i knew what he had said, but i did get take out all the time, and i guess somehow, my brain had figured that one comment out..
my son does the same thing.. when he went on a work study program in Germany, he "understood" most of the other there, inspite of a very poor command of spanish, and almost know other language..
i used to do it very well with Yidish, (a common language in my childhood nieghborhood) but i do it less and less well with age.
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a good part of comprehension of spoken language depends on facial expressions, gestures and other body language.
It's interesting to think about this in the context of Fiberbabe's Korean experience. The body language is as language specific as the words, grammar and syntax are. People could watch Fiorello Laguardia in newsreels with no sound and tell from his body language and gestures whether he was speaking English, Italian or Yiddish, all three of which he learned as a small boy.
Post Edit:
At the request of the lovely AnnaS, Fiorello Laguardia was the mayor of NYC back in (helen? can you help me here?)
He grew up in a mixed Italian/Jewish neighborhood in an age when pretty much everyone in such a neighborhood spoke their ancestral tongues and maybe English too. His fluency in three languages was a great asset in his campaigning for mayor (an office that is almost universally popularly elected among USns).
The airport was named after him.
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Fiorello Laguardia 1882-1947 Served as Mayor of NY from 1934 to 1945. He was one of only three modern day mayors to serve 3 consecutive terms in office. The airport is not just named for him, it exist because of him. He caught pneumonia one winter, and went to Florida to recover. He had been there a week and was beginning to feel better. Back in NY a disaster struck, and fireman was killed in the line of duty. Laguardia wanted to return to NY immediately, and booked a flight to NY on American Airlines. The plane landed at Newark (NJ) airport, and LaGuardia refused to get off. He said, my ticket says New York, I am the Mayor of New York, and this ain't New York! Eventually, the plane took off again, and brought the mayor to Floyd Bennet field (an army base) in Brooklyn. After the funeral, LaGuardia started plans for the airport that bears his name. Work was started in 1937, and the airport opened in 1945. (more about the air port here http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/lhisfram.htm)
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My daughters do this with Chinese movies they watch with their mom. They can actually follow a lot of what's going on even though they understand very little of the language.
I remember once I went to a Chinese carryout with some friends. The chef started loudly griping when the people in front of us started acting like boneheads. My companions were embarrassed and glancing at members of our own party. Suddenly I burst out laughing. In the middle of the chef's harangue I had made out the words "meigwo sagua" (stupid americans). I was practically in tears.
I think the things we really absorb are what we pick up without trying.
k
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I've always felt that I could tell from looking at people whether they were anglophone or francophone (obviously not with 100% accuracy but I'm pretty good at it). I've come to the conclusion that our libraries of facial expressions are different, including the "resting" facial expression most people wear most of the time. I haven't yet reached the stage of being able to describe the differences. It still remains a gut feeling.
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anglophone or francophone
I think the faces, even in repose, are going to look different. The different languages use different facial muscles in speech. It will be very subtle and I doubt any but the most perceptive could articulate the differences.
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I learned a little french in HS-- and i remember clearly, some words, like oui, to be said properly used different muscles than normally used in english.. Our french teacher would come down the rows, and gently poke our cheeks.. if we didn't winch in pain, (from sore muscles!) she would say-- you need more practice!
as faldage said.. different facial muscles are used, and this must effect wrinkles (or lack of them) and all sorts of other subtle effects.
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I went to school with one Ng Chin, and although we weren't close friends we always got along well enough. Ng went on to bigger and brighter things - took over his father's chip shop in Port Chalmers. I used to annoy the hey out of him by banging into his shop and shouting "Ng ah!" which basically means, depending on tone, "Ng, get your ass out here NOW!" He never learned and cursed me out every time. I used to know a lot more Cantonese when I was a kid (Chinese neighbours), but I don't remember a damned thing now. Shame, really, innit?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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