Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#63747 04/04/02 02:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477
H
hev Offline OP
addict
OP Offline
addict
H
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477
GallanTed just used a phrase which has always made me wonder. He said "I'm not a grass" which reminded me of watching The Bill (a fave of mine) where there's at least 3 instances in every episode of someone with a cockney accent saying "I won't grass 'im up - e's me mate" or similar.

I get the context, but where does the term come from? Etymology please kids...

Hev

#63748 04/04/02 07:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Z
newbie
Offline
newbie
Z
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Grass seems to be another example of the famed cockney rhyming slang - as a shortening of grass-in-the-park, which rhymes with "nark".
A nark is British slang for an informer - a shortening of copper's nark. This is possibly from the Romany nak for nose.

My English great grandma loved the term "nosey parker" for a busybody, and I would guess that it is linked to the Romany word too.





#63749 04/04/02 11:15 AM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
R
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
R
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Welcome, zootsuit - and thanks for the expplanation. To me, it has become so much an everyday word that I have just accepted it, unquestioningly, as part of the normal vocab.
And here's me - a Londoner - admitting to not knowing about me own manner of speaking, in a manner o' speaking !!


#63750 04/04/02 02:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
W
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
There could be confusion between US and UK slang here, it seems In US a narc is a drug cop. And grass used to be standard for cannabis. But an asp in the grass might also mean a grasp in the ass.


#63751 04/04/02 02:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
A nark is British slang for an informer - a shortening of copper's nark

Now this is interesting, zootsuit! As Dr. Bill said, here in the US narc means, likewise, an informer or undercover cop, but derived from narcotics and the drug culture of the 60's (maybe earlier?) Back in the 60's and 70's the worst thing you could call somebody or accuse them of being was a narc! What are you, a narc?" is still a phrase you hear fairly regulary, usually in a jocular sense. But I've never seen it spelled with a "k", nor was I ever aware it was also derived from another source across the pond. So I'd love to hear some more about the background/etymology of copper's nark, and nark with the "k" as well.


#63752 04/04/02 11:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477
H
hev Offline OP
addict
OP Offline
addict
H
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477
Thanks zootsuit! Glad to see you're still here.

Okey dokey - this raises some more questions for me:

grass-in-the-park

Am I missing something here? What is the relevance of this statement? I understand the rhyming connection with "nark" (more about that later) but why would someone say this? How did it become the basis for the rhyming slang? I'm not explaining myself very well here ... I just don't understand why someone would say "Oh look at the grass in the park." Was there something fascinating about the grass?

copper's nark. This is possibly from the Romany nak for nose.

Ok, more about this please... I understand the "narc(otic)" connection on the US side of things, but what's the deal on the Brit side of the pond. Is the nark/nose connection correct? So a grass is actually a nose? I suppose that works.

Ok, I'll stop rambling now! But it is a word post!

Hev

#63753 04/05/02 01:34 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,510
Likes: 1
W
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
W
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,510
Likes: 1
Not precisely the same phrase, except perhaps by phonetic analogy, but does anyone know where the similar-sounding "gussied up" comes from?

It's used to mean "made to look pretty, at least superficially." Presumably there was once a personage named Gussie?

There is a scene in A Tree Grows in Brooklyninvolving "giving baby the Gussie," but that doesn't really sound like quite the relevant source...

Any ideas?


#63754 04/05/02 02:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Oh man, I was so excited when The Word Detective began to verify my guess...and then the OED knocked it down:
"Gussied up" is a horse of a different color, however, and I think its slightly sarcastic tone is just right for describing someone dressed to the nines. "Gussied up" is usually described as a native Americanism dating to the early 20th century. The "gussy," it is theorized, was actually a "gusset," a triangular piece of fabric sewn into a garment to make it fit better. Gussets were, in those days, typical of fancy clothes and, by extension, a fitting symbol of sartorial frippery.

The Oxford English Dictionary, however, proposes a different, and I think much more likely, origin of "gussied up." It turns out that "gussie" -- a diminutive of the name "Augustus" -- is Australian slang for an effeminate man, dating back to the early 1900's. It's easy to imagine a rich young dandy named "Gussie" incurring the contempt of turn-of-the-century Australians, so I vote for this theory.


Here's what he says about grass:
My original theory was that the root of "grass" meaning "informer" or "traitor" is the expression "snake in the grass," which since the time of Virgil has been a metaphor for a deceitful or treacherous person.

Other authorities, however, trace "grass" to the rhyming slang term "grasshopper." Rhyming slang, common among the Cockneys of London as well as the working classes of Britain and Australia in general, uses a system of rhymes to disguise the words actually meant. In this case, "grasshopper" rhymes with and stands for either (opinions vary here) "copper" (as in police officer) or "shopper" (one who "shops," or sells, information to the police).

Lending credence to the "grasshopper" theory is the fact that while the earliest use of "grass" in print can only be traced back to 1932, an example of "grasshopper" is found as of 1893. If "grass" had come from "snake in the grass," it probably would have shown up much earlier, but as is it appears to have been a simple abbreviation of the already existing "grasshopper."

There has, incidentally, been a further development on the "grass" front in Britain in the last several decades -- the emergence of the "supergrass." These "superinformers" are high-level criminals whose revelations, comparable to those of recent American underworld turncoats, have shaken up major criminal syndicates in Britain.


#63755 04/05/02 02:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688
A
addict
Offline
addict
A
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688
"Gussied up" is a horse of a different color, however, and I think its slightly sarcastic tone is just right for describing someone dressed to the nines. [emphasis mine]

Dressed to the nines. Where did this come from and what does it refer to? What are the nines? Any takers?


Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Z
newbie
Offline
newbie
Z
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Well I have been digging around and finding out a little more about the Romany language. Theories on the origin/s of the Rom/Roma/Romany folk are many and varied but it seems they have strong historical connections to India. The Romany language has elements of several Indian dialects. Not many Romany words have been incorporated into English but interestingly the East Enders of London have a number of them.
Example: "bloke" (meaning a man, also commonly used here in Oz) is from the Romany loke, which in turn is the Hindi word for man.

Anyhoo - back to the grass/nark connection: from what i've seen it is pretty certain that the "nark" or informer is derived from the Romany nak or naak for nose. The nark would "sniff out" information - hence "copper's nark" being self-explanatory. The modern "narc" has it's origin in "narcotic" and should not be confused with the much older "nark". Similarity is coincidental I guess.

But Hev's question remains: WHY turn "nark" into "grass in the park"? Clumsy indeed. I wish I knew!


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,912
Posts229,283
Members9,179
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
TRIALNERRA, befuddledmind, KILL_YOUR_SUV, Heather_Turey, Standy
9,179 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 444 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,542
wofahulicodoc 10,510
LukeJavan8 9,916
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2024 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5