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#62689 - 04/02/02 09:44 AM Re: Shrek  
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Rubrick Offline
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there's magic (this particular family is very conservatively religious), there are mythical creatures

Er, helloooooooo!!! It's a fairytale!!! What did you expect?

Do those same people have the same problem with Lord of the Rings? It also has magic and mythical creatures and a lot of sanitised violence to boot.

there's torture (of the gingerbread man)

Now, come on! [Jeremy Paxman emoticon] This is a mite ludicrous. I think that kids these days know the difference between a gingerbread man and an animate being. As for animated violence I don't think that it has adverse effects on children. Plenty of people grew up with the likes of Tom and Jerry without acquiring violent tendencies.

As for me I loved Shrek so much I bought the DVD. Okay, it's not as funny as Toy Story 2 (The Star Wars revelation in that had me in tears) but Eddie Murphy and Mike Myers playing off each other were priceless. The Monsieur Hood scene was the best, though, but sadly too short and I'd have loved to see it last at least five minutes longer.


#62690 - 04/02/02 10:02 AM Re: Shrek  
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Rubrick Offline
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Well, I thought "Lord Farquaad" was pushing the limits just a little. And then there's...

He was the baddie. If he was the nice guy then we wouldn't have a story. Even I understood that one.

about Snow White
Magic Mirror: She lives with seven men, but she's not easy.


Nothing you don't hear on daytime television either side of the pond. Indeed you hear worse things on kid's soaps.

(re: the very tall castle.)
Shrek: Do you think he's compensating for something?

(the singing welcome to Duloc)
Please....Keep off the grass, shine your shoes, wash your.....face!


There's a story behind this. The producer of Shrek used to work for Disney until he walked out after a heated argument. The film is full of jibes at the Disney empire - including the Magic Kingdom castle and 'It's a small world'. Note also the name of the 'car park' in the grounds of Duloc and the guy wearing the large head at the entrance - all Disney references. Duloc is also an acronym. Can you guess what it stands for?

In the scene when Lord Farquaad is watching the "video" of Fiona on the magic mirror while sitting in bed, if you look closely (just before he smiles and looks at the camera) you can see the blanket covering his lap rise up slightly.

After five viewings I can't say that I noticed (although maybe I just wasn't looking). Farquaad was a little guy. Perhaps it was his knee? I'm sure that the animators wouldn't be that crass.

And I'm sure there's something rude about the dragon and the donkey.

Your imagination runneth riot. It was meant to symbolise love crossing many boundaries - just like Shrek and Fiona. Are you deliberately looking for faults where there aren't any to be found?


#62691 - 04/02/02 10:24 AM Re: school reading lists  
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St. John's College in Annapolis, Maryland, is, I believe, unique in the academic world. They operate on what
they call the "Great Books" method. The students spend 4 years reading 100 books, which the College thinks
are the indispensible books for an educated person. (The list is revised periodically -- it's not always the same
100). It covers such diverse writers as Euclid, Freud, Isaac Newton, and, of course, "literary" authors. Science
and math[s] are learned from original writers. Also, there are no professors, no lectures and no exams. The
students are taught by tutors, as at Oxford & Cambridge. [Actually they teach themselves, guided by tutors.]
Strange as this may sound, it actually produces graduates who are in great demand by corporations and other
employers. I imagine they have a website where you can learn more about this program and the reading list.
It's not a real old idea; although St. Johns is an old institution, it used traditional methods until the 1930's,
when it was on the verge of going out of business and the Great Books program was invented to keep it going.


Wow, Bob. That is so unorthodox but a brilliant idea. I'll check it out sometime. Two things. How do they know that a)All of the students have read the books? and b)How do they know that, having read the books, the students have digested the full meaning of the books? Do the tutors keep records of continous assessment?

I can only presume that the entrance exam to St. John's is based upon an already established passion for reading on the part of the student.


#62692 - 04/02/02 12:53 PM Re: Shrek  
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TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Well, I didn't discuss the issue with these parents, as I felt somewhat embarrassed that I had nearly shown the show to the kid in the first place and I didn't know how to broach the subject without sounding condescending.


However, I've heard what other conservative religious types have said about it and they have mentioned a few of these things.


There is a difference between LOTR (and chronicles of Narnia) and HP, Shrek. LOTR and Narnia were both written by christians (Tolkien actually helped convert Lewis) and Narnia is christian allegory. This, I have maintained for some time, is the real difference.

OTOH, I read an article somewhere the other day where a conservative religious type was going into some detail about his perceptions of the differences. In Narnia and LOTR magic are treated reverentially, and with some caution. HP and Shrek promote occultism by not engendering a reverence for magic. It sounds like cavilling to me, and many of these guys are trying to get HP out of the classroom and school (and public) libraries. In that situation, I wouldn't hesitate to debate the subject, but as I said, I thought it would be unpleasant to do it at a birthday party for my girls.


k



#62693 - 04/02/02 12:55 PM Re: Shrek  
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There's a story behind this



I'm going to watch it again this weekend with this thought in mind!

k


#62694 - 04/02/02 12:57 PM Re: Shrek  
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Rubrick, I can only assume that our US'n and Strine friends are not entirely speaking about their own views but interpreting the views of others. I think that their tongues are firmly in their er cheeks.

[to protect the little ones]I have a strong aversion to Disney and regard time spent in their theme parks as tantamount to torture. I thought that they deserved all they got when someone sued them for one of the Mickey Mouse characters removing his head in public.

By the way Whatdaya think of this. My daughter came home from school in a bad mood at having to watch some awful Disney thing for the nth time. She said that the teacher had been away and they could have watched the Simpsons but one of the children's parents had said that they weren't allowed to watch it. I blame Marge's liking for the odd six-pack, unless there are fairy stories buried subliminally in the story.

Perhaps that is why (apart from Salman Rushdie) no-one is too bothered about banning books any more, they are too het up about the misbehaviour of cartoon characters.
[/rant]


#62695 - 04/02/02 01:16 PM Re: Shrek  
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of troy Offline
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i am with Jo-- i hate Disney-- its all so falsely sweet. god knows i had a terrible childhood.. but fairy tales were wonderful... at least my mother wasn't about to lead me off into a forest and abandon me, and witches weren't going to try to eat me.. and hansel and gretel were good kids, in no way did they deserve maltreatment. maybe that, more than anything else is a nice part of fairytales. bambi's mother dies. but bambi keeps on living. live isn't all fun, sweetness and pleasure. bad things happen, and yet we can go on. the old Disney had some of that.. but can you image Old Yeller being made today? now days everything has a happy ending.

well guess what? kids know its not true. kids from slightly disfucntional families can feel normal (oh household is just like the simpsons!) and yet recognize things should be better, but its not their fault. Bart doesn't feel guilt or think its his fault that homer drinks. bart is a nice strong character.

and fiona, is embarassed to be an ogre.. why? cause society values superficial beauty over personality, intelect, character. Sheik loves fiona, not the beautiful woman, but the personality, intelect and character. he too, feels unworthy of such beauty. but when fiona becomes a ogre, he sees her as even more beautiful
guess i saw different things in the film!


#62696 - 04/02/02 01:30 PM Re: Shrek  
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There is a difference between LOTR (and chronicles of Narnia) and HP, Shrek. LOTR and Narnia were both written by christians (Tolkien actually helped convert Lewis) and Narnia is christian allegory. This, I have maintained for some time, is the real difference.

Okay, I'll admit that I didn't know that Tolkien and Lewis were reverential christians BUT I do think that Tolkiens work was inspired more by his in-depth knowledge of Norse and Germanic folklore more than his religious beliefs. The characters are trolls, dwarves, goblins and elves and the language is runic - nothing to even suggest Christian or any other major relgion. Okay, there is the symbolism of good versus evil and you could say that the fellowship was a sort of crusade but these are pretty borderline comparisons.

Chronicles of Narnia is christian allegory? I was a young devout Catholic when I read the series a good twenty years ago and I never made that connection. Where do the lion, the witch and the wardrobe fit into that comment?

OTOH, I read an article somewhere the other day where a conservative religious type was going into some detail about his perceptions of the differences. In Narnia and LOTR magic are treated reverentially, and with some caution. HP and Shrek promote occultism by not engendering a reverence for magic. It sounds like cavilling to me, and many of these guys are trying to get HP out of the classroom and school (and public) libraries. In that situation, I wouldn't hesitate to debate the subject, but as I said, I thought it would be unpleasant to do it at a birthday party for my girls.

Point taken about Tolkien and Lewis's treatment of magic but they both took their writing seriously and thus wrote from a more realistic point of view. Shrek and Harry Potter (I have neither read the books nor seen the movie so I am no authority) are whimsical stories for children and adults alike referencing earlier influences from which their authors most probably drew.

I can't speak for HP but Shrek never made me think of going out and ritually slaughtering a goat in front of a pentacle or sacrificing a virgin. Nothing occultish about it, I thought. But, to quote Shrek, 'an ogre will boil your eyeballs for jelly. Actually, it's quite nice on toast'.

It's only a bit of fun.


#62697 - 04/02/02 01:46 PM Re: Hansl und Gretl  
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hansel and gretel were good kids, in no way did they deserve maltreatment

Good kids? They murdered that poor forest woman for no better reason than their father thought she was an infidel. She saved them from starving or freezing to death out in the woods. All she asked in return was a little help in chopping some wood and fixing some dinner, and those "good kids" killed her for her troubles.


#62698 - 04/02/02 02:29 PM Re: Harry Potter  
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OK, FF ~ I'll play out the Harry Potter issue with you. I'd argue that Rowling does portray a reverence for magic throughout the books. Everything that falls out of Dumbledore's mouth is warning the kids to be careful with the power they're learning. It seems to me that just because the protagonists use magic a little clumsily to attain their goals, that doesn't mean that it's treated irreverently. Harry, Hermione, and Ron aren't angels like Frodo (who bears the burden silently), but I felt the message in the HP books was pretty clear - use your power wisely.

Shrek is more like the Terry Pratchett Discworld series, where magic is played for laughs. I don't particularly think there's anything wrong with that either. But that's why I'd never make it as a conservative Christian.

Well, that's not the only reason...

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