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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Just as Fowler foams at use of "individual" , a case can be made for not using "person" when a more closely descriptive word can be used. "Person" comes from theatrical mask "persona". All the world's a stage, but not all people wear "personas".
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I used not to be aware there was a problem here...thought myself comfortable with these words and their forms....oh, happy days.
Bingley and Boronia have summed up "people(s)" in a way that rings bells with me at least. "Person(s)" still bothers me. Gilbert's use of "young persons" rather than "young ladies" or even "young people" may be a fine distinction, but it is one that we recognise and that conveys quite exactly certain information regarding their age and probable lack of discretion. Jeeves would have used the same terminology for the same purpose - to convey a slightly warning note; to imply a measure of unpredictability.
On a different note, a phrase one hears commonly used in police statements is: "...committed by a person or persons unknown", which seems more correct than "...by one or more unknown people" (you can't have "one people" - at least not in this context), but would you say "...by two or more persons unknown" or "...by two or more unknown people", or is either usage equally good? Come to think of it, why don't the police simply say "...by an unknown number of people" and leave it at that?
My head hurts.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 322
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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why don't the police simply say "...by an unknown number of people" and leave it at that?
I think there are two unknowns in "person or persons unknown" -- the number of people and, more important, the identity of the perpetrators - having said that, perhaps we could modify your suggestion to "an unknown number of unknown/unidentified people" -- hmm, all of a sudden, "person or persons unknown" almost sounds elegant
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Many police blotters refer to "perps".
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>A person or persons entered the building under cover of darkness and made off with an undisclosed amount of money.
Why this stiff phrasing?
I am going to surmise here. Part of it is the pseudointellectual bent, people trying to sound smarter than they are. And cops are pretty well known for doing stuff like this. I saw a police report about an auto accident in which the cop reported that the victim's foot was decapitated.
Anyway, there may be a legal reason for saying person or persons unknown. If I report that a person entered a building and stole something and later I arrest two people, the defense attorney may try to argue that I've charged too many people.
Similarly, if I report that two people pulled off a burglary and later arrest only one, the defense may similarly try to put doubt in the jury's mind.
Again, this is surmise on my part.
TEd
TEd
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Many police blotters refer to "perps".
Not in the UK they don't!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Many police blotters refer to "perps".
Not in the UK they don't!
There are many police blotters that are not in the UK.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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No, dxb, I think you missed the nice distinction between a [young] lady and a [young] person. Or a gentleman and a person. You must be too young to know about this. It's not a matter of age, discretion or predictability. It's a matter of class (pronounced clahss, in the Pom manner).
In the olden days (up to the 1930s maybe) the term "lady" or "gentleman" had quite a precise meaning, and it had to do with social class. The upper classes were not about to recognize a pleb as an equal, and those who served the upper classes had to be particularly careful not to appear to be recognizing a female person as a lady when she was not. Hence, if the butler needed to inform Madam that someone like Eliza Doolittle desired to speak with her, he might say something like, "Madam, there is a young person who wishes to speak with you." He certainly would not say a young 'lady'. That was what WoDoc was getting across in his Mikado example. These conventions are now as dead as the dodo almost everywhere, although I suppose there may be a few Col. Blimps and their female counterparts still holding the upper class fort in nursing homes in remote parts of Britain.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Well – no, not quite old enough, nearly but not quite – often feel as though I am mind you. But yes, your explanation is so logical that I am convinced it is correct. Something learned today!
Out of date expressions such as "young persons" become more interesting when one learns about the society that found them useful. The arrogance and self concern of that "clahss" of the between-the-wars society is wonderfully displayed in the opening sequences of the film Gosford Park, where the maidservant is kept in the pouring rain by Maggie Smith with no recognition of her as a human being (or "person" even).
No, I don't think we have any Col. Blimps of that pattern left here now - not even in Budleigh Salterton, which was reputed to be their "elephant's graveyard". There is still snobbishness, but now it is connected to what you do for a living, and I think it is international.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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A line I use once in a while (but VERY carefully, mind you):
So what's a lady like you doing in a nice place like this?
TEd
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