Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#62429 03/27/02 03:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
M
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
M
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
Keiva wonders about the origin of "You're all wet!" in another post, and it brought to my mind another expression that means someone is naive or inexperienced: Greenhorn.

But why greenhorn? Anyone know? Bovine origins? I never seen no cow wit green horns, no never.

Edit: this baby pretty quickly got shanghaied by the uniform debaters so I thought I would edit the title so people could remember where to find that scintillating discussion....!

#62430 03/27/02 11:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
From The Word Detective:
A "greenhorn" is simply a newcomer or inexperienced person, especially a novice in a trade or business. "Greenhorn" first appeared back in the 15th century meaning a young ox with new, or "green," horns. ("Green" has been used as a metaphor for "young" or "inexperienced," by analogy to a young plant, for hundreds of years.) By about 1650, "greenhorn" was being applied to newly-enlisted army recruits, and shortly thereafter "greenhorn" came to mean any inexperienced person. Unfortunately, since the naive among us can easily be hornswoggled, "greenhorn" can also sometimes mean "sucker" or "simpleton."

Still, I'd rather be thought a "greenhorn" than a "tinhorn," which since the late 19th century has been slang for a pretentious and flashy but cheap and contemptible person. The original "tinhorns" were "tinhorn gamblers" in the Old West, addicted to a low-stakes game called "Chuck-a-luck," in which dice were tumbled in a small metal contraption known as a "tin horn." Serious gamblers looked down on such "tinhorn gamblers," and by the end of the 19th century "tinhorn" had come into general usage as an adjective meaning "cheap" and "contemptible." A similar adjective, "tin-pot" (often heard in phrases such as "tin-pot dictator"), arose in the early 19th century by analogy to the perceived shoddiness of tin cookware.


I first looked in Brewer's Phrase and Fable. They didn't have greenhorn, but they did have the following entry, whose def. made no sense to me at all:
Green Linnets The 39th Foot, so called from the colour of their facings. Now the Dorsetshire, and the facings are white.



#62431 03/27/02 11:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144
R
member
Offline
member
R
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 144
Green Linnets The 39th Foot, so called from the colour of their facings. Now the Dorsetshire, and the facings are white.
____________

Army reference - 39th Foot (presumably regiment) which had green facings on their uniforms. A number of regiments have been amalgamated over the years, so I guess that's what happened to the 39th Foot who had to give up their green facings when they became the Dorsetshire and adopt the new white ones.

As to Greenhorns, I would probably say that someone was 'still wet behind the ears'.



#62432 03/27/02 11:56 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
B
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Jackie is puzzled by:
In reply to:


Green Linnets The 39th Foot, so called from the colour of their facings. Now the Dorsetshire, and the facings are white.


The 39th Foot is a regiment, which was later called the Dorsetshire. Facings are part of their uniform: the frilly bits at the front of eighteenth and nineteenth century (?) soldiers' uniforms, I think. Rhuby, when did khaki come in? Something at the back of my mind is saying Boer War.

Bingley



Bingley
#62433 03/27/02 02:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
I've often confused these two terms, and I'm sure other folks have too. Tinhorn originally referred to gamblers, usually in the Old American (US) West, who were pretentious braggarts but who were unskilled and ineffective. And sometimes, it seems to me, the term was used to imply a new or naive gambler, especially in some of the old Hollywood Westerns, so this could be the cause for the two words being used interchangeably in some quarters. This is from American Heritage:

SYLLABICATION: tin·horn
PRONUNCIATION: tnhôrn
NOUN: Slang A petty braggart who pretends to be rich and important.
ETYMOLOGY: From the horn-shaped metal can used by chuck-a-luck operators for shaking the dice.
OTHER FORMS: tinhorn —ADJECTIVE


And here's a great discussion on the origins of tinhorn and greenhorn, and how they may have acquired a shared meaning, from Quinion:

http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-tin2.htm




#62434 03/27/02 03:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
I seem to recall Green Linnet as being a record label (company) which specialized in Celtic music -- and wondered about the genesis of the name.

http://home.mn.rr.com/wwftd/

#62435 03/27/02 03:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
R
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
R
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Absolutely right, Bingley. Red uniforms were just too easy to hit under those conditions, whereas khaki tended to blend with the colour of the veldt. Not that that actually seems to have prevented the Boer sharpshooters from wreaking havoc among the Brit Army by there very accurate shooting.


#62436 03/27/02 03:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
your right tsuwm, green linnet is record label, and yes they specialize in celtic music, they also have a picture of a green linnet on there catalog, and on their labels.

as for why they chose the name, i remember reading about it once in one of there catalogs, but i have totally forgot why. i'll go look and see if they have a web site, and if it gives an explaination.


#62437 03/27/02 06:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
red uniforms:

Red uniforms were just too easy to hit under those conditions


Interesting, Rhuby...I was ruminating this point just last night while watching a historical film about the Seven Years War. I was wondering when did the British Army become the Redcoats, and who decided that wearing red in the days of open-field warfare was a good idea? Wearing that color was like having a bullseye hanging around your neck despite the notorious inaccuracy of the weapons of the day (which gave true meaning to the term "pot-shot"). Surely they must've realized that green or brown uniforms would have blended in with the background more and made the marching ranks a far more difficult target. Or did they value so little the lives of the enlisted men in those days that they just didn't care? (although the officers wore the same color) Does anyone know the history of the British Army adopting red uniforms as their rule of dress?


#62438 03/27/02 09:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
J
old hand
Offline
old hand
J
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
red uniforms

Well, it's one of the colors in the British flag, but red is in almost every flag, so that probably doesn't mean anything.

My guess is that it was intended to conceal blood. Doctors (or is it just the patients) today wear those ugly green smocks. The reason for that color is that it's the exact compliment of the color of blood. When the two mix they visually neutralize, making the blood less obvious, I guess. At least that's what they told us in a lecture on color for architecture.


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,316
Members9,182
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
Ineffable, ddrinnan, TRIALNERRA, befuddledmind, KILL_YOUR_SUV
9,182 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (wofahulicodoc), 604 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,542
wofahulicodoc 10,533
LukeJavan8 9,916
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2024 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5