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#58966 02/27/02 03:11 PM
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this phrase has shown up in two threads over the past couple of days, which prompts this comment/question: most dictionaries give the etymology of double entendre as an obsolete French phrase which translates as "double meaning", but in English usually implies that one meaning is indelicate.
I was surprised to discover in the OED that the original (obsolete) French phrase was double entente.

Why the change of words, and is neither expression extant in modern French?


#58967 02/27/02 03:21 PM
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Dear tsuwm: double meanings often occur unintentionally. They are very common as a form of irony. Ribaldry is more permissible when not explicit.And everybody has to get into the act and change things, as you have pointed out to me.


#58968 02/27/02 03:31 PM
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Neither rendition is in my fancy new French dictionary . Should I take it back?



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#58969 02/27/02 03:38 PM
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Reminds me of a groaner

"Have you ever had deja vu?
Nope. I don't eat French food. It keeps repeating on me.



#58970 02/27/02 04:02 PM
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dear bill, just so; but that wasn't my question. why the change from entente to entendre?



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By the by,my friend Michael Vickers of Oxford has been working on Aristophanes
for several years now, and has written dazu: he believes Aristophanes is
*far* more obscene in his double-entendres than we have even guessed so
far. Guess what? He can't find a publisher for his work....The more things
change,....

I'd like to see some samples.

A number of sites include double entendres as a form of sexual harassment. So beware.


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Aristophanes loses quite a bit in translation. His plays becomes incredibly hilarious if one reads (say) three translations simultaneously, picking the best from each.

I'd like to see some samples.
"Some lovefeast! The only thing getting laid here is the table." -- Lysistrata
[further suitable only for PM]

#58973 02/27/02 05:22 PM
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Dear tsuwm: the only "entente" I remember is the Entente Cordiale that checked the Kaiser in early 1900's, until he built up his navy enough to feel able to risk war:

Agadir 1911

Double Entendre (English-French for Un mot à double
entente, or à deux ententes).

Words which secretly express a rude or coarse covert meaning, generally of a licentious character.
“Entendre” is the infinitive mood of a verb, and is never used as a noun.

I think that "entendre" means to understand, and I think that "entente" means agreement.

Not one to give up easily, Kaiser Wilhelm sends a warship to the Moroccan town
of Agadir in 1911 to "subtly" show German presence. This time, however, he
comes face to face with the Entente Cordiale, who put enough pressure on the
Kaiser to make him back out of Morocco completely.



#58974 02/27/02 05:36 PM
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Yes Bill, the tawdry cycle of gunboat diplomacy reached its zenith at Agadir. Of course, one of the first examples was Commodore Perry sailing into Tokyo Bay!



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#58975 02/27/02 06:43 PM
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Now tell me where he learned the trick!


#58976 02/27/02 07:20 PM
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#58977 02/27/02 09:07 PM
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Interesting, tsuwm. It looks as though the French use entente. I found the following in "Dictionnaire Universel Francophone © 1997 HACHETTE/EDICEF pour les bases de données dictionnairiques et la version réseau. - © 1997 AUPELF-UREF pour les ajouts scientifiques et l'adaptation lexicographique des bases. - © 1997 Claude Poirier pour la base lexicographique "Amérique du Nord"." Unfortunately, it doesn't give an etymology.
entente n. f.

1. Mot, phrase à double entente, que l'on peut comprendre, interpréter de deux façons.
Note: all real French speakers, please correct my interpretations as needed! This means: Word, phrase ...that can be understood, interpreted in two ways.
======================================================
entendre v. tr.

I. 1. Litt. Percevoir le sens de, saisir par l'intelligence, comprendre.
Literally, to perceive the sense of, to know by intelligence, to understand. Nowhere under this word did the dictionary use the phrase double entendre.
=====================================================
Here's something interesting--I don't think the last line really needs translating.
Thresor de la langue française (1606)
entente (236)
Mettre toute son entente, Acriter animum intendere.

Mettre son entente à fouyr puis, Conferre animum ad fodiendos puteos.

Respondre à deux ententes, Perplexe respondere, Respondere suspensa et ambigua, et vtroque flexibilia, B.

This Dictionary of Other Times had no mention of double entendre.
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/efts/ARTFL/projects/dicos/




#58978 02/27/02 10:46 PM
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Wow, thanks for that, J! =)

does your dictionary by chance include "equivoque"? that word sounds to me like it might a "real" french word.

as an aside, another term to describe a dilogical statement is "amphibolous". i just like the way it sounds.

#58979 02/28/02 02:55 AM
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An amphibole is a family of dark coloured (dark green to black), iron and/or magnesium rich minerals. Obviously the words have the same root (?)

Please let me in on why........(showing my monoglottedness......)

stales


#58980 02/28/02 03:45 AM
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Monarchs are amphibolous, because they've got two. Monorchs are one shy.


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A number of sites include double entendres as a form of sexual harassment. So beware.

Both ways, I presume. Some of the women I work with can be wicked.


#58982 02/28/02 03:42 PM
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Thank you, Caradea--I love to learn things so painlessly! Again, no trans. needed. Oh--plusieurs is several.


équivoque adj. et n. f.

I. adj. 1. Susceptible de plusieurs interprétations. Comportement équivoque. Termes équivoques. 2. Péjor. Qui n'inspire pas confiance. Réputation, allure équivoque. Syn. louche, suspect. II. n. f. Expression, situation laissant dans l'incertitude. Parler, agir sans équivoque. Syn. ambiguïté.





#58983 02/28/02 03:52 PM
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équivoque adj. et n. f.

I. adj. 1. Susceptible de plusieurs interprétations. Comportement équivoque. Termes équivoques. 2. Péjor. Qui n'inspire pas confiance. Réputation, allure équivoque. Syn. louche, suspect. II. n. f. Expression, situation
laissant dans l'incertitude. Parler, agir sans équivoque. Syn. ambiguïté.


Ah, louche.

This was the word of the day way back on July 16th last year.

louche (loosh) adjective

Of questionable character; dubious; disreputable.

[From French louche, cross-eyed, from Old French lousche, feminine of lois,
from Latin lusca, feminine of luscus, one-eyed.]


Would perjury have emanated from the French word Péjor?


#58984 02/28/02 04:03 PM
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I believe that 'Pejor.' in the definition is just a label for 'pejorative use', not a word itself


#58985 02/28/02 04:07 PM
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Pejor...just a label for 'pejorative use', not a word itself

Not so sure about that. I never learned the word in French class, but in Spanish there is "pejor" (worse), the antonym of "mejor" (better), and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there is a similar word in French with a common Latin root in all three languages.


#58986 02/28/02 04:48 PM
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Latin malus=bad, peior=worse,pessimus=worst


#58987 02/28/02 05:59 PM
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Pejor...just a label for 'pejorative use', not a word itself
> Not so sure about that... it wouldn't surprise me to find out that there is a similar word in
French.

there may well be, but I'm betting with boronia on this -- it looks like an abbreviation for the F. equivalent of "pejorative sense".




#58988 02/28/02 08:00 PM
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I had assumed, along with boronia, from its context that that was the meaning of Pejor.

And on consulting my "dictionaire" I find: pejorati-f -ve (adj) pejorative


#58989 02/28/02 08:22 PM
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not trying to be ultra-picky, but I'm guessing that you consulted your dictionnaire (2 n's) :-)


#58990 02/28/02 08:33 PM
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Sorry - can't afford 2 ns - it ain't chicken feed, you know!


#58991 02/28/02 08:34 PM
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now, now

or - if I, too, cry poverty, would that be: ow, ow!?!?


#58992 02/28/02 08:36 PM
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Sorry - can't afford 2 n's

But Rhuby, this whole thread is about double-n tendering.


#58993 02/28/02 09:05 PM
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Ackshully©, the Spanish is peor, not pejor. It comes from the latin, pejor. Mejor is the correct spelling for better/best in Spanish, latin melior and is the antonym of peor.


#58994 02/28/02 10:29 PM
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Thanks - I stand corrected. And learned something today


#58995 03/01/02 11:05 AM
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I believe that 'Pejor.' in the definition is just a label for 'pejorative use', not a word itself

Le Whoops©! Mon faux! [emoticon embarasée]


#58996 03/01/02 05:49 PM
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RhubarbCommando: Sorry - can't afford 2 n's

Rhuby, just contact Rubrick. He's our Master of Dubl i n. [/emoticon embarasée]


[oh, HOW could I have missed this before? -e]


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The expression is still A double entente in French.

I'd think the word would have been changed to entendre in English because entendre means "to hear" and you hear two different meanings in a double entendre. An English person would think that double entente would not make sense because the primary definition of the word is agreement but it is also in the same family as entendre just like entendu.


#58998 03/02/02 06:07 PM
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Oddly, équivoque is seldom used alone. It is generally preceded by SANS to mean something is completely clear and has only one meaning - C'est un phrase sans équivoque.

It is also used when a person wants to say he is not waffling on an issue... Je suis sans équivoque à propos des clowns qui se promènent avec des balounes.


#58999 03/02/02 10:27 PM
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In Spanish, the verb equivocar means to be mistaken, to be in error, to get something wrong. The adjective, equivoco(a) from the latin aequivocus, means ambiguous, much like double entendre.


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