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old hand
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old hand
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Ok, Max, I get what you're alluding to. The electoral system is slightly flawed, but it usually works without any problems. There were specific reasons for it's inception and apparently no one has introduced a better system that everyone will agree on, so it's there. Plus, that only pertains to the presidential election, nothing with Congress, which is more important anyway. But musick, I'd love to know what you're talking about. I still hold that public office is by far not the most efficient method of personal gain. Even if you do get elected, there are so many levels of legislation and so much media coverage that it would be near impossible to do something sneaky. Maybe I'm just naive, but y'all sound like weirdo conspiracy theorists. 
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Carpal Tunnel
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Maybe I'm just naive, but y'all sound like weirdo conspiracy theorists.Maybe neither, Jazzo - but think of it as capitalism proved in action: 1 All government is *our power vested in others (ever read any Rousseau yet? - you might find him interesting, especially from a 'foundation of America' perspective) 2 All government depends for its existence on the wealth created by its citizens - in other words, they also spend *our money 3 The amount of power this structure gains thus tends to rise in inverse proportion to the freedoms enjoyed by its citizens 4 This is why historically no government has ever willingly ceded power back to its citizens - the motivation of the system runs entirely the other way 5 Thus it is vital that all who believe in individual liberty and personal freedom have to fight a continuous battle simply to maintain the advances forged over many hundreds of generations A simple illustration: we tend to think of our modern times as the acme of freedom and liberty... well, in many ways yes, but before the French revolution I could have travelled throughout Europe without a passport, and would have paid no income tax. Like many such increases of control by the mechanisms of the modern nation state at the cost of its individual citizens, these features were brought in as expediencies at the time of conflict (the Napoleonic Wars). Guess what? ~ these 'temporary measures' never got repealed! So, yes, Jazzo, keep a sensible head on your shoulders about loony conspiracist rednecks by all means, but don't underestimate the price we must pay in each and every generation to sustain the ideal of personal liberty: the price is vigilance. A suspicious scrutiny of anything proposed by any government, especially under pretext of 'special measures in times of war', is merely the by-product.... 
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Carpal Tunnel
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...before the French revolution I could have travelled throughout Europe without a passport, and would have paid no income tax...these features were brought in as expediencies at the time of conflict (the Napoleonic Wars). Guess what? ~ these 'temporary measures' never got repealed!
If I recall correctly, the US income tax was also a temporary measure, passed to finance World War I. I need not point out there, I did, anyway that it too has yet to be repealed.
Don't know what Ben Franklin's take on that would be (except I suspect he would agree with Santayanna)
("...are doomed to repeat them")
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Carpal Tunnel
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...the US income tax was also a temporary measure, passed to finance World War I...
But since then we've never actually® been out of war long enough for "the people" to do anything about it!
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Carpal Tunnel
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But no matter how we moan about the income tax, without it the US could never have achieved the status we now have. I think I get more benefits from my taxes than any other country could provide.
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Carpal Tunnel
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wwh - I agree completely with the conclusion and your word choice as far as *quantity goes, but I'm not sure the 'type' of status and benefits we enjoy are currently moving in the *correct direction. IMHO, of course.
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Carpal Tunnel
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I am compelled to remark on the beautiful lack of animosity in this thread. I shy away from politics, but I'm happy to see it *is possible to discuss such without imagined offenses taken. Even though it is a non-word thread 
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Carpal Tunnel
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As I said in another post, I worry about the future of a culture that mocks virtues, and enriches pornographers. We still have freedom to influence legislation, but too many (including me) are lax about being active in the political process.
I got a very interesting e-mail about the over-permissive parents of John Walker. I did not know before that it says right on passports that enlisting in a foreign army voids citizenship. I hope they shove that clause right up his cloaca.
P.S. Dear AnnaStrophic: I am so anxious to keep the Board running in a friendly way, I am trying very hard not to hurt anybody's feelings. If I err unwittingly, sock it to me. That's an order.Please.
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Joined: Dec 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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4 This is why historically no government has ever willingly ceded power back to its citizens - the motivation of the system runs entirely the other wayThe only 'sneaky' thing I may have implied (unintentionally) is that this is not clear to most people (whether misinformed or unaware) and not part of what in most mediums sell. ... and tax rebates don't *define "power", at least not to me. My apologies to all for perpetuating a political discussion, but as I've just seen AnnaS remarks, I hope my feeble attempts at bringing the definition of a term to focus will help us maintain this *course
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
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Jazzo, you are, I believe, correct in the main in your belief that it's either difficult or impossible to get really rich out of politics. But I just finished reading in the latest Smithsonian magazine, which I received today, an article about William Marcy Tweed, the infamous Boss who ran New York, through Tammany Hall, for years. He made enormous amounts of money for himself and his cronies, all by means which depended on political position and power, but not necessarily high positions (which he never held). I believe we are going to find out more about modern money making through political contact with the Enron scandal. We may find that there are more people making big bucks through politics than we thought possible. The Tweed article shows how large sums can be gathered from almost insignificant offices or positions. I beleive there was a minor scandal some time ago having to do with the Bureau of Indian Affairs and that there are huge sums involved in a lawsuit now going on.
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