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Joined: Jan 2001
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wwh Offline
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Unfortunately, it is too easy to hurt feelings, even without abuse or vitriol. I have been misunderstood when I did not mean to offend. The thing that upsets me is that I know of more than two people who have left because their feelings were needlessly hurt. I have said things that later I wished I had not. But now, please, let's have some new topics to post about.


#53108 01/19/02 03:58 AM
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Here's some words to ponder: respect, acceptance, tollerance, and caring

These seem to be missing at times. I too have been the victim of nasty PM's and personal attacks. Having not even been here a month, I considered leaving too. Then I decided to give those attackers, the respect that they did not give me.

In a forum such as this, it is very easy to get your feelings hurt, or to be the one doing the hurting. We sometimes misunderstand what another is saying in a post, or take their post the wrong way. I have appreciated, greatly, those who have addressed me in PM, who have pointed out a misunderstanding in my words or theirs.

And I have made some new friends here as well. I will reach out to each of you at some point to say hello. Please feel free to do the same. I have gained considerable knowledge while reading the board, and through the PM's that have come my way.

But let's get back to those words: respect, acceptance, tollerance, and caring and practice them with one another.

I'm proud to have this post make me a member of this board. And I'm very happy to know each and every one of you.


#53109 01/19/02 09:12 AM
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For better or worse, this board is not simply a forum for the discussion of words and language. It is a community - a group of people tied together by their (metaphorical) proximity. As such, the members (using the term loosely) unconsciously develop a set of norms; a way of doing things. It is this unconsciousness, the fact that a community does not objectively view "normal" that is the cause of many problems for newcomers, strangers et al. Even in the brief time over which I have assimilated into this community, the ties that bind us have become much tighter - exemplified by the existence of WORDAPALOOZA. I think nothing of the trans-tasman rivalry in which I have become embroiled (exaggeration for effect), but, as a previous thread demonstrated, an outsider may well be shocked by this love-hate relationship. It is the nature of the long-term members to return fire, albeit good-naturedly, when attacked or when feeling vulnerable, but to do so to a newcomer is a recipe for trouble, which even the glorious welcoming party which greets new entrants can not diffuse. Conversely, a new member is not going to be welcomed if they break the norms of the community, regardless of whether they are consciously berated or just appear to have a negative je ne sais qois. The fault lies not in the people, but rather in the system.

Tune in next week for the solution. [tongue-in-cheek-e]



#53110 01/19/02 02:31 PM
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An open letter to Geoff,

Why punish me? I looked forward to years of discussion with you on the awad board. You have an open mind that is needed in the awad mix. Please read those private messages again. And if you still think that they are in any way out of order, I will trust your judgment, and join you in telling the writers of those foul posts to go straight to Hell.

Milo Washington
(Milum)

PS: My last PM to Geoff was... Great post, Geoff.
What was yall's?


#53111 01/19/02 03:10 PM
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The vitriol is at the root of the problem. I definitely think that PM's are just that: private. And better to send a vitriolic PM than show public vitriol.

But no vitriol at all is best. It's so judgmental--and I cannot think of a single member here who has the right to speak with a scowl as though representing the board, even a portion of it.

We grow here by our variety of approaches and voices. Flaming, whether private or public, categorically ruins the health of a board. I have seriously considered leaving altogether twice now--as I am certain others have from what has been written to me privately.

I strongly suggest to each of us to keep our attacks in our hearts, realize that none of us has to write to attack personally, none of us has earned the right to judge--we are equals. And if some injustice arises in something that is posted on the board, to handle that judgment with care. Is it really worth the fight, and, if it's truly worth the fight, to approach the poster in a spirit of obvious good will--no subtle knives dug in at all.

wwh: the ice is coming down here at the farm and I'll set my mind to word questions.

However, an attack is not something easily forgotten. It leaves a scar.

Geoff: come back!!! You're definitely not alone in this. A lot of us have been there.

Best regards,
WW


#53112 01/22/02 02:07 AM
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This post has been in consideration for five months. In my humble but considered opinion:

First, many may not appreciate how very severe the problem is. In the last halfedit: should read "six" months of 2001, precisely three people came on as new posters and stayed long enough even to reach the member level. A mere three people. This board is simply not attracting and keeping new voices.

Thus in practice (though not in theory) we have become a closed club -- a secret society. We profess openness, but we run off new people by requiring that no one may join us unless, as the price of admission, he is thick-skinned enough to run a gauntlet of criticism. We do that knowing full well, from experience, that few will tolerate that price. I cite that as historical data, not expressing judgment.

Second, it is of no use to simply wish that critics would be more kind, or that their targets more thick-skinned. Wishing the world were different will not make it so.

Third, in this thread we are repeating ourselves. We have already discussed this topic extensively, shortly before and after September 11. If we do nothing different from what we did then, we have no right to expect different results. Talk is cheap, but are we merely mouthing platitudes, talking the good talk to cover for being unwilling to act?

Fourth, I appreciate that this board does not feel comfortable with the course of action I stated then. Repeating, for reference only "We can all deplore rudeness, and cruelty, and bullying, and violence, but we cannot stop them with mere deploring words. In the real world they will ever exist, and we are responsible for how we act - or fail to act -- accordingly. Cruelty, bullying and violence are weeds, and will spread ever-wider unless checked. There is but one way to deal effectively with the most vigorous and vile weeds: to deracinate them, thoroughly and promptly. One can hope to be careful and gentle, but never at the risk of losing sight of the job that must be done."

In the months since then, it has become clear that others are not prepared to deal in that way with rudeness on the board. As best I can tell, one can count on one's fingers the number of times that anyone, other than me, has stood up to object that a specific post is hurtful. It also appears that the board disapproves when I stand up in what I have intended to be that manner. Accordingly, I will desist.

Fifth and last, I raise no moral objection to a closed club -- but I do not personally feel comfortable being part of one. And purely as a matter of personal taste, I do not wish to be part of a board where people are willing to tolerate the hurtfulness we have seen in past months. This I can get from chat rooms. Other people are of course perfectly entitled to act as they wish, but I will be departing unless I sense a change in how we act as to rudeness, not merely how we talk about it.

#53113 01/22/02 02:19 AM
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I just want to remind others that Geoff said he was deleting AWAD software. So PMs or posts won't help. Send him e-mail. His address is in his bio.


#53114 01/22/02 04:15 AM
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Who are these people? We keep hearing of people being driven away by overly harsh pms, but I have no idea who the people sending them are. I can't say I've ever had any pms that have been less than courteous (not that I'm complaining, mind), and many that have a shown a touching concern for my wellbeing.

Sometimes things have got a little rough on the board, but usually these have centred on topics where passions are predictably riding high and where a certain immoderation in the use of language can be discounted and should certainly not be taken personally. Politicians in any country may be professionally obliged to believe that anyone who disagrees with them is a fool or a villain, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to follow their example.

Keiva recommends public reaction to hurtful posts. I wonder if this does not just prolong the agony? Except in the most egregious examples, I suspect a pm of support to the wounded party expressing support would be more effective.

Bingley


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#53115 01/22/02 08:55 AM
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#53116 01/22/02 08:58 AM
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