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#49213 12/07/01 03:22 PM
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Bob, the way i see it, there are 2 separate and distinct christmas's-- one is religious one, one is secular.

In countries where there is an established religion, there might be some control over the second (secular) holiday, but in a country like US-- there is no control. the two holiday's have very little in common, except that they share a name and date.

I am not very religious, but i don't let the secular holiday interfere with, or effect Christmas.. i actually rather dislike the secular christmas, i think all the hype and focus on material things can only lead to disappointments, and all the pressure to have an idealize, perfect christmas lead to christmas being one of the most depressing holidays.. Like scrooge, i tend to say bah, humbug! to most of the stuff..

when my kids were young, we focused on making christmas presents, as they got older, it took them a while to learn, i actually liked getting homemade gifts, rather than store bought. and we never went into the feeding frenzy of shopping.. if everyone was like me, christmas season would be a huge financial bust..

(ie. this year for christmas, i got my son and his family a supporting membership in a local museum, for the 10 year old son of my D-I-L, i got a package of modeling clay-- since he enjoys making things.. he made me a miniature dog, fashioned after his own a few weeks ago, with clay i had in the house.)

as for the fine difference between advent, christmas and epiphany, well, i am just not that religious.
what upsets me, was coming out of the train station, and hearing Salvation Army (a religous organization!) "bell ringers" singing secular christmas songs!


#49214 12/07/01 09:18 PM
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the state religion in England... C of E ... (everyone is by law presumed a member of it)
Bob, are you trying to tell me that every last person in an entire country is presumed to be a member of one religion??? [Eyebrows shooting through the ceiling e] (I can't even touch that 'by law' part...)


#49215 12/08/01 06:41 AM
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#49216 12/08/01 04:49 PM
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I was taught that the 12 Days of Christmas take place Dec 25 through January 6th, the 6th being variously called Epiphany, 12th Night, the Feast of the Three Kings or Little Christmas.
When my sons were young we had a Nativity scene set up and the Three Kings were placed far away and moved every night a bit closer to the "Crib," arriving on the morning of Jan 6th (via Mom magic) That day the boys each received a present brought by the Kings. We had a "favorite" dinner and a special dessert.
This gift aspect very handy if I had not intuited the exact gift they *really wanted for Christmas. What a life saver! And it could be bought at the after-Christmas sale too!
But mostly it is a way to extend the Christmas spirit into the new year. I am always pleased my sons remember that childhood experience when they contact me on Jan. 6th to wish me a "Happy Little Christmas."



#49217 12/09/01 02:31 AM
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Warning long, rambling post, feel free to skip this post

>the state religion in England... C of E ... (everyone is by law presumed a member of it)
Bob, are you trying to tell me that every last person in an entire country is presumed to be a member of one religion???

A difference between UK and the USA is that the Church of England is an "established church". I can't find an exact short definition of what this means but Google on "England Established Church" to get several versions. I'm sure Rhu can fill us in as you have to wade through a lot of history from Henry VIII onwards to get anywhere. Strangely, the Church of England's own website doesn't give an exact definition of the implications today, even though there are regular discussions about disestablishmentarianism.

Since I have not lived through an age when people who were not members of the Church of England were barred from public office it has little impact on daily life, we currently have a Catholic Speaker of the House of Commons, for example, although the accession of a Catholic monarch is still probited by law. http://www.royalreport.com/newscharles1.html

The main use that is made of the Church of England by those who are not regular church goers is as a place to get married. We do not have a long tradition of people marrying in places other than churches (or other places of worship)(although the law recently changed), so a CofE wedding is the norm amongst those are baptised members of the the Church of England or those (eg those baptised in another church) who do not choose to follow any other religion. See: "Entitlement to marry. Any person of British Nationality who normally resides in England is entitled to marry in his or her Church of England parish church, provided that (1) the other partner is also of British Nationality and also normally resides in England, (2) that there are no legal impediments of the kind described below [Section 6], and (3) that neither of the couple is a divorcee whose previous partner is still living (the Church of England's regulation on this matter is recognised in law [Matrimonial Causes Act 1965, s.8] - see below, section 10.1). This entitlement applies irrespective of whether either of the couple normally attends church and irrespective of whether either of them has been baptised. It also applies irrespective of whether either partner is a member of the Church of England, or of another denomination (or of none)"http://www.cofe.anglican.org/lifechanges/index.html

Although the Queen is the head of the Church of England, decisions are made by the Synod. Although bishops sit in the House of Lords and are appointed by the Prime Minister (I think) my understanding is that the Church runs its own affairs and the political stuff is just a rubber stamping exercise. I doubt that a Prime Minister would dare to try to get involved in the real process of selecting a Bishop, although there are plenty of conspiracy theorists who dislike any political involvement in the process.

Here's some current information:
"Almost half of all adults in the UK say they have no religious affiliation, according to a new survey.
The decline in religious belief is most apparent in the Church of England which now claims the loyalties of just over a quarter of the population. ... The report found that 48% of people in the UK claim to belong to a religion, compared with 86% of people in the US and 92% of Italians."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1043000/1043986.stm

From the Church of England's Website:
"Church of England Weddings
In 1996 there were 71,000 weddings in Church of England churches*. These comprised 27% of all weddings and 41% of all first weddings. In 1995 there were 80,000 Church of England weddings.
Baptised Population
It is estimated that over 25 million people living in England today (about half the population) have been baptised by the Church of England."http://www.cofe.anglican.org/about/frame_organisation.html

Sorry that I couldn't give a shorter answer!

Jo


#49218 12/09/01 05:49 PM
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Thank you, Jo, for that wonderfully enlightening post. All very strange to me, but. That reminded me a little of the sideways look I got while examining different denominations of coins from New Zealand. Every last one had a picture of Elizabeth on it, and I said, "Man, you-all really like the Queen, don't you?". Why is that, please? Is it technically considered to be her money, like in Roman times when there was a picture of Caesar on it? Could she ask for it? And while I'm at it, to sort of make this seem like a language post, I have some questions about royal capitalization. Should it be written The Queen, or the Queen, or does it matter? Is monarch ever capitalized? Should I write the Monarch? (Perhaps when it is specific, as in: Elizabeth, the Monarch)?


#49219 12/09/01 06:33 PM
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Jackie, you are getting so good at the minutiae of British culture, soon you'll be a Dame.

Here's where to look for correct forms of address and how we shall have to address you in the future - quite an eyeopener!

http://www.debretts.co.uk/

Once you have that under your belt you'll know more than most Brits!

As for the currency. All British coinage has the queen or king on one side and something else on the other. I don't know much about New Zealand coinage, I assume that it must follow the same pattern.

Her's the website for the Royal Mint http://www.royalmint.com - You'll have to order your Jubilee coins soon!

Jo


#49220 12/10/01 01:44 AM
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Jo, thank you for the links. Look what I found under forms of address (note--there's that weird ...arm = ...alm again): Ma'am is pronounced Mam (as in spam) rather than Marm (as in palm)
• Interesting pronunciations include:

Althorp - All-trup
De la Warr - Della-ware
Beaulieu - Bew-ly
Le Fanu - Leff-new
Blenheim - Blen-im
St John - Sin-jun
Cholmondeley - Chum-li
Theobald - Tibbald


The other site answered another question of mine, about capitalization: throughout the land the accession was declared of the youngest Monarch to succeed to the throne since 1837, when the 18-year-old Princess Victoria became Queen. So, now I know: Monarch is capitalized, at least sometimes. But, should it be, if it is used as a general ref.? As in, "England has had many monarchs"?


Signed,

Dame Jacqulyn ("Jackie" is simply fah too pedestrian for a Dame...) (Oh, this is great fun! But I'll be so glad when the rest of you realize the board's back up, so I won't be talking to myself any more.)



#49221 12/10/01 03:47 AM
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Yes Musick, these outrages make you sometimes long for a real old-fashioned Christmas, like those in the Massachusetts Colonies under the government of the Pilgrim fathers, when you could be put in the stocks for taking off work, or singing a Christmas tune (even to yourself), or indulging in any kind of celebration on Dec. 25.

I often wondered if it was just sheer perversity that made the pilgrims and their English counterparts, the Puritans, try to ban Christmas. Then I read a book by Pierre van Paassen, who told of his youth in Holland in a strict Dutch Reformed milieu. The Dutch Reformed Church, like the early followers of John Knox, orthdox Presbyterians, the Puritans and the Pilgrims, was (and still is) strictly Calvinist.

As van Paassen tells it, the Calvinist doctrine was that Christmas marks the descent of Almighty God into that charnel house of corruption and depravity, the human state, and is therefore nothing to celebrate -- only an occasion to contemplate anew the fathomless and almost hopeless depth of wickedness and sin which is the normal state of humans and the goodness of God in deigning to become human so that at least a few might be rescued. A theology which, although logical from the Biblical premises, is pretty repulsive to most Christians today.


#49222 12/10/01 11:40 AM
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Being a devout and practising agnostic (my science degree and devotion to matters scientific make it impossible for me to personally take on board any hint of creationism or a higher being), I'd like to get the thread back down to a level I feel at home with....

Does anybody remember a parody on the carol "Deck the Halls" by Weird Al Yankovic (or somebody of a similar ilk) called something like "The Vivisectionists' Christmas Party"? The only line I remember was "Deck the halls with parts of Molly".

BTW - any comments about my comment above will be ignored. I will defend anybody's right to have a belief and express it, be it religious, cultural or whatever. Coupled with this is a major problem I have with those that seek to change the religious and cultural beliefs of others. For these reasons I prefer not to discuss politics and religion with friends - and you are all my friends.

stales


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