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After having lived for 52 years, it is interesting to notice when mispronunciations become acceptable because, according to judgments made by lexicographers, enough of the population is incorrectly pronouncing a word to make the mispronunciation an acceptable part of the language.
One that has changed in acceptability in my lifetime is (at least in American English):
affluent (first pronunciation, AF-floo-ent) has now the additional now acceptable af-FLOO-ent, which still goes against my aural grain.
Another that I predict will change is carbohydrate (first pronunciation, car-bO-HI-drAte) which I know hear
regularly mispronounced as car-bO-HI-drit.
Another that is regularly mispronounced is template (first pronunciation, tem-plit), but mispronounced tem-plAte.
Have any of you observed mispronunciations becoming acceptable in your lifetime? I'd be curious to read here about your observations. (I've read cross-references on this topic in the search section, by the way, but I'm raising this as a separate subject on how the unacceptable in our language have become (or are becoming) acceptable.
Best regards,
WW
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Not sure what is mispronunciation, but.
As a callow yoot, I remember either being pronounced mostly as eether; the eyether pronunciation was, to me, a little high-falutin. Any more the standard pronunciation seems to be eyether; the people who still pronounce it eether seem to be few and far between.
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maintenance (MAIN-tenance) into (main-TAIN-ance)
Yuk.
As for nuclear ---well!--- let's not go there again.
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How about bird for brid? Oh, wait a minute; that was a long time ago so it's probly OK by now.
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I find that where I am familiar with two pronunciations, neither of which have been deemed incorrect, I tend to switch randomly among them. The two eithers and neithers, and offen vs. often, all come to mind.
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and while i have no problems saying Duration (dur a tion) during is always juring... alway a j, never a d at the start of that word! and i am not alone-- is there anyone out there who still has a d sound out in front?
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is there anyone out there who still has a d sound out in front?
I also waffle on any of those "u" words where the Brits add an extra y sound...Tuesday, duty, during, news...Since I've moved to Newfoundland (much closer ties with Britain than mainland Canada), I've picked up saying T-yoosday instead of the American Toosday. Helen's post reminded me that "during" is another one of those. If I add the y, it makes the d into a j (jyuring) but without the y it's still a d (during).
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But when you listen to the news and television (if ever), don't you hear words that just make you want to blow up because you hear words changing that you've got some affection for?
Candidate. Not that I like politics. I don't. It's my civic duty and nothing more.
But I've heard so many dadburned reporters pronouncing candidAte, candidit that I could just cry.
I know that the word is doomed. We'll eventually lose that perfectly lovely long A, and will be stuck with the more convenient "it" sound.
I also like brid. It's closer to some of the sounds brids make--especially if you roll your tongue a little on the "r"--quite onomatophoeic.
WW
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during is always juring... is there anyone out there who still has a d sound out in front?
The change of tyu, dyu to chu, ju in British English has gone through three stages. At the beginning of the 20th century good speakers only used it in words like 'picture' (pikcha): the pronunciation piktya or piktyua would have been old-fashioned even then.
The old RP accent had tyu, dyu in all other cases.
The next change was for them to become chu, ju in unstressed syllables, as in fortune and residue. This is how I speak when careful.
The latest change is the same in stressed syllables: tune and dune are now choon and joon. This is, I think, still regarded as a bit sub-standard, and I'd only use them casually (and might tend to resay if I noticed).
However, 'during' being such a common word, it is probably in advance of the change, and I find I always say juring. Only if I was being exceptionally careful would I say dyuring.
Once I caught myself hypercorrecting jury to dyury.
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Helen, I pronounce it "doo-ring" and I'd have thought most of USn's do. Now I'm perplexed.... Antipodeans, do y'all palatalize the d in during (and the T in Tuesday for that matter)? Nice thread, Wordwind. Right up my proverbial alley!  As Faldage pointed out, 'brid' became 'bird' before any of us were born and I guess we just have to accept changes, as grating as they may be. Having said that, though, I'm with wow: "nucular" sends me screaming down the street.
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Honestly! The things you guys make me think about! Sitting here repeating aloud the various pronunciations of "during" until none sounds right and I can't recall how I say it normally. I think I'm with AnnaS and usually say doo-ring, possibly dyooring - never juring. But from now on, it's certain to catch my ear when someone else says it.
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Pardon, aren't all words and all pronunciations and all meanings in a state of transition?
Melt.
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In reply to:
Pardon, aren't all words and all pronunciations and all meanings in a state of transition?
Pardon, aren't all generalizations dangerous?
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Don't know whether this is widespread in the States - but have noticed on some US television programmes that 'participants' often pronounce 'ask' as 'aks' and 'vulnerable' as 'vunerable'. Is this the norm? Not conscious of presenters/announcers etc. using these pronounciations. Moreover, have never heard the former down under; the latter is creeping in.
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Have none of my fellow USns noticed that in the US, the long 'u' sound, correctly pronounced like 'yew' with the initial 'y' sound, as in 'during' as discussed, is slowly being displaced by the 'oo' sound? Except among those who are careful of their pronunciation, 'new' and 'knew' are now pronounced 'noo', as in Noo Yawk. This goes for any words with the long 'u' sound, whether they are spelled with 'u' or with 'ew'. Next I would expect to hear a she sheep called an 'oo', but that practically no one uses the word 'ewe' outside of crossword puzzles. So we don't see a big problem with 'during, jury', etc -- they are being pronounced 'dooring', 'joory', etc. It's a trend I hate; I think the 'oo' sound in place of the long 'u' is inelegant, to say the least.
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during I've always heard and pronounced during as "derring." Is that an East Coast (US) thing?...of troy?, wow? It seems some repronunciations suddenly spring back into usage from nowhere...like I've noticed lately that a lot of folks are making it a point to crispen the "g" in strength again (which is correct), when the lazier "strenth" suited folks (including me) just fine for decades. Maybe I just have a lazy tongue.  One recent glaring change over the past few years just drives me crazy... forté. All my life, a large part spent in the theatre where this word is commonly used ('that's not my forté', or 'that's my forté'), it has been pronounced for-tay. The, by some unknown linguistic decree, about 4 or 5 years ago everybody in the media started to pronounce it fort. I looked it up and the former is actually an acceptable, though not preferred, pronunciation. But why on earth take a wonderfully poetic, double-syllable word, and suddenly decree it to be pronounced like a hard lump of dead wood? I'll never get used to that, and for-tay it shall always be with me. I want to stick a bar of soap in their mouth whenever I hear someone do that to that word. Fort  !!! Thanks, WW, I've been meaning to post a thread on this for quite some time, but somehow always got distracted but something else whenever I thought of doing it. So thanks for giving me the opportunity to finally post it here.
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> Antipodeans, do y'all palatalize the d in during (and the T in Tuesday for that matter)?
(1) If I understand palatizing correctly - in Australia we don't. We follow the line that Bean's come across in Newfoundland ie "dyew-ring" and "Tyews-day".
(2) I was mortified to hear George dubyah talking about the reduction of the USA's "nyew-kuh-lar" arsenal yesterday. This is right up there with "arks" for "ask" in my book!!
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Just thought of another..."chassis"
The original pronunciation I used was "shazz-zee" but I hear others (US'ns especially) using "chass-ee". Is one more correct than the other?
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I'm on a roll here.....
The one that irks me most is the ever increasing usage of "dee-fence" rather than the original "d'fence".
A big THANKYOU (not) to US basketball for this one.
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I'd go with sha-see myself.
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A) It's forte not forté and parperly pernounced [fort], although the [forté] pronunciation is popular; see Usage Note at http://www.bartleby.com/61/99/F0269900.html) 2) Time back way back when we were still kulchad enough to say brid instead of bird ascian and acsian were both considered correct. I have always assumed that ascian was pronounced [ah-skee-an] but come to think of it the sc was normally pronounced [sh]. The ME was asken. That may be due to Danish influence. Dunno about no [arks], no matter what you do with the r the a is an æsh in good old-fashion Murcun.
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Just thought of another..."chassis"
Dear stales: Did you never see a sassy lassy with a classy chassis?
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About chassis...I only hear chass-ee in my neck of the woods in Virginia...
About during; I only hear derr-ring;
Abt. Tuesday, only Toos-day;
On February, I would like to hear Feb-ru-air-ee, but I usually hear Feb-yu-air-ee;
How about didn't? I hear a swallowed "Di-nt," and rarely, what I prefer, "dih-dint." Maybe that's just me, however...
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Oh, good thread, folks. Lucy, delighted to see you back, Sweetie! I have never heard juring for during--how in the world could anyone get to that transition, anyway?? I have also never heard during as derring. Daring is "derring". (By the way, why is derring-do always written that way, and not as daring-do?) Some of the differences in syllable stress are regional in the U.S.--we in the South tend to "firstify" things: DE-fense sounds fine to me, as does IN-surance, though both are also heard here with the accent on the second sylLAble(hi, tsuwm). People from a bit further north and east of here (upstate Ohio, etc.) also have a pronunciation of long o that sounds odd to me--a very quick ee sound, almost: hyome, slyow. Hmm--now that I'm trying to hear it in my head, I'm thinking it's more of an "a" sound, and I can't write it for the life of me. I'll throw in my primary screaming-down-the-street one again: Antartica. Question: does anyone pronounce Wednesday any way other than Wens-day?
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Well, now : how about suite as in a suite of furniture - tables, chairs and couch (or sofa {there's another one creeping in}) or other things that "belong together" and also meaning a group of people - a retinue.
I learned to pronounce suite as sweet but also have heard it pronounced as suit like a man's suit.
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Question: does anyone pronounce
Wednesday any way other than Wens-day?
I tend to say Woden's Day, just in cast that particular god isn't dead. Curious how we English speakers commemorate a Nordic god on that day, whereas Latin types commemorate Mercury, as in Miercoles in Spanish, Mercredi in French, and Mercoledi in Italian.
As for the aks for ask switch, I've observed this almost entirely among US blacks. I've also heard people use a short a, while others use a long a when saying "ask." Who says which?
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What heathens!
You've lost the thread, TEd, we're not discussing hens in heat.
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>I have also never heard during as derring. Daring is "derring".
this is probably just a matter of different pronouncing guides. how would you pronounce 'derr'? I wouldn't think with a long a. I would show daring as /DARE ing/ and during as /DUR ing/ (midwestern flat dur, with no j or y influence)
>By the way, why is derring-do always written that way, and not as daring-do?
interesting question -- it was given to us that way by Spenser and Sir Walter Scott (and glossed by them) as an erroneous pseudo-archaism.
c1374 Chaucer Troylus v. 837 Troylus was neuere vn-to no wight+in no degre secounde, In dorryng don [v. rr. duryng do, dorynge to do] þat longeth to a knyght+His herte ay wiþ þe firste and wiþ þe beste Stod paregal, to dorre don [v. rr. durre to do, dore don] that hym leste. 1430 Lydg. Chron. Troy ii. xvi. (MSS. Digby 232 lf. 56a/2; 230 lf. 81a/1), And parygal, of manhode and of dede, he [Troylus] was to any þat I can of rede, In dorryng [v. rr. doryng(e] do, this noble worþy wyght, Ffor to fulfille þat longeþ to a knyŠt, The secounde Ector+he called was. [edd. 1513, 1555 In derrynge do, this noble worthy wyght.] 1579 Spenser Sheph. Cal. Oct. 65 For ever who in derring doe were dreade, The loftie verse of hem was loved aye. [Gloss., In derring doe, in manhood and chevalrie.] Ibid. Dec. 43, I durst in derring do [mispr. to] compare With shepheards swayne. 1590 I F.Q. ii. iv. 42 Drad for his derring doe and bloody deed. 1596 Ibid. vi. v. 37 A man of mickle name, Renowned much in armes and derring doe. 1820 Scott Ivanhoe xxix, Singular+if there be two who can do a deed of such derring-do. [Note. Derring-do, desperate courage.]
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And in some novels of Japanese samurai, warriors invited maidens to walk in woods for a demonstration of bushi-do.
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Wordwind. The mispronunciations seem to tend in favor of attentuation, for instance, "candidit" for "candidate". This may be part of a general trend in favour of attentuated spelling characterized by the droping of unecesary leters. The trend is most pronounced in the U.S.A. whilst the British hold out with stiff upper lip as usual. For instance: "favor" instead of "favour" (which remains in favour in England and with your neighbour to the north, Canada), "Savior" instead of "Saviour", "neighbor" instead of "neighbour". We also see it in words like "crystallize" and "crystalize" which are correct either way. Is this an erosion in values or just an erosion in the alphabet, I wonder? Speaking for myself, I'm not sure. Perhaps the trend toward attenuated spelling is related to the trend towards "Casual Fridays", which became the trend towards "Casual Monday thru Fridays", and has now become the trend towards "Casual 24/7". Trends are always running downhill ... or so it seems to lexicographers and elocutionists, not to mention haute couturalists. I have also spotted the trend amongst horticulturalists.
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This may be part of a general trend in favour of attentuated spelling characterized by the droping
of unecesary leters.
Wll, thn, lt's jst drp vwls ltgthr! Isn't there precedent, as in ancient Hebrew?
Perhaps this "casualization" of language fits in with the law of thermodynamics that says that everything is headed towards entropy.
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Jackie: The during that I hear is durring in which the "urr" rhymes with the "urr" in "blurring"--that is if you pronounce "blurr" to rhyme with the "er" in "wander." I never hear here in Virginia "dooring" or "dyooring."
How 'bout the "r" in the second syllable of February? Have you noticed that people in your locality drop that "r"? I am fervently punctilious in enunciating that "r"--but it is a dying dog here in Virginia, which, in the Richmond area, is often pronounced, "Vuh-GIN-yuh," shiver, shiver.
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the law of thermodynamics says that everything tends towards entrophy
You may have something there, Geoff. Things can get so laid back, they will end up laid out. That would be Chaos ... at least that's my theory.
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One of my pet peeves in pronunciation is the use of a "schwa" in far too many places where the printed vowel sound could help listeners get the word.
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wwh: Schwhat? Could you please give some examples. I'm being obtuse here, but, even though I know what a schwa is, I don't understand the particulars of your peeve.
Thanks, from this most humble soul, for any edification,
WW
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I have a related schwa peeve -- I understand its use in multisyllabic words, but what the heck is the rationale behind using it in monosyllabic words??
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schwa 7*w9, *v98
n.
5Ger < Heb sheva, a diacritic marking silence instead of a vowel sound6
1 the neutral mid-central vowel sound of most unstressed syllables in English: the sound represented by a in ago, e in agent, i in sanity, etc.
2 the symbol (!) for this sound, as in the International Phonetic Alphabet and this dictionary
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Thanks for the dictionary definition, Dr. Bill. Those who needed to LIU won't need to now if they read your post. Schwas are convenient and correct to describe certain English vowel sounds in unstressed syllables. But I also wonder, along with tsuwm, wassup with using a schwa in one-syllable word?
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Thanks for the forte link, faldage. Interesting that the original pronunciation is now so uncommon that it sounds incorrect...and why is the original suddenly being used again? However, I know I've seen it spelled with that pesky é in respectable publications and some dictionaries over the years. Could it be because the now-preferred pronunciation sounds French?
employee/employe We have an editor of a weekly here on the Jersey Cape who demands his writers spell employee with one "e". This gentleman is well into his seventies so this is not some young upstart, and his explanation is simply that employe is correct and the extra "e' is a wasted letter, or something to that effect. According to the dictionaries the one-e spelling is acceptable, but we can never get used to writing or seeing it. I've never seen it spelled this way before or since. Has anyone else ever encountered employe? Please note it is still pronounced the same, so I guess this is embarking on a different variation...is there a word for this linguistic twist, tsuwm?
aunt An obvious example missed. The awnt, ant pronunciations for aunt I generally take to be a Brit/USN thing, although sometimes it just seems to be a matter of preference (or the haughtiness of class when used by the Blue Book society set here in the US).
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Most Zildians pronounce it "ahnt", an exact homophone of "aren't"
As do New Englanders.
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Wll, thn, lt's jst drp vwls ltgthr! Isn't there precedent, as in ancient Hebrew?
I just got a call from Colin Vowel, Geoff. He says casualization is one thing. He strips down to his stripes for bed-time duty and has a son to prove it. But, disem-vowelment is something else entirely. And he will have none of it. That is, he is in favor of more vowels rather than none at all. I thanked him for his call, Geoff. I never argue with anyone above my pay-grade.
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I just got a call from Colin Vowel, Geoff.
Vowels in retreat: uoiea
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May I inquire as to the military/political implications of frequent Vowell movements?
Do you, General Vowell, perchange live in Flushing? Being of high rank, you are an Upper Vowell, thus above the need to live in Flushing, but what of those in your family who comprise the lower Vowells?
And isn't your given name spelled Colon? And isn't your illegitimate son named SemiColon?
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Vowel movements?
A very good use of vowels. And also very clever! [kudos]
Vowels in FULL retreat: yuoiea
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The full regiment in retreat: wyuoiea
And doesn't Wyuoiea sound like an Irish name? How would we pronounce it, Teddy Bear Gallant?
Dub
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Question: does anyone pronounce
Wednesday any way other than Wens-day?
I'm surprised that our irish teddy bear has been quiet on this one. When I grew up in an Irish part of the North of England. The Irish contingent tended to say "wed-n-sday" with a definite "d", which reminds me of a another word "fil-um" for "film". So I'd say that asking someone to say "do you want to see the filum on Wed-n-sday" was a good way of spotting an Irish influence.
My knowlege isn't sophisticated enough to know if this was only Southern Irish Catholics or whether Northern Protestants would use the same.
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Pooh-Bah
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As for the aks for ask switch, I've observed this almost entirely among US blacks. I've also heard people use a short a, while others use a long a when saying "ask." Who says which?
In the UK, axe for ask is invariably an African Caribbean usage (or whatever the new version of Afro-Caribbean is), I used to hear it a lot when I lived in London. I also heard if from Southern Black Americans (again, I'm not sure of their current self-definition) from my days of working on the musical "One Mo' Time" (what joy!), I picked up a lot of useful language, most of it unrepeatable. At that stage realised that there were some words that were not OK to be used by a mere "honky" even in jest. Anyone for the black bottom?
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Pooh-Bah
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>The change of tyu, dyu to chu, ju in British English has gone through three stages.
I'm definitely in the ju camp until I tried to say "During the day, the jury made their decision" in which case I repeat the sentance, "correcting" the "ju" to "dyu". I suppose we tend to change our emphasis in our pronunciation if we need to make a destinction clear.
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Pooh-Bah
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aunt An obvious example missed. The awnt, ant pronunciations for aunt I generally take to be a Brit/USN thing, although sometimes it just seems to be a matter of preference (or the haughtiness of class when used by the Blue Book society set here in the US).
In the UK it is just another of the North/South short vowel/long vowel divide.
I always find it interesting that in Scotland, a long vowel used by an English person is seen a sign of "snootiness" and "Englishness" whereas in the South of England, everyone would cut the Graaas, regardless of claaas.
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Pooh-Bah
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Have any of you observed mispronunciations becoming acceptable in your lifetime? I'd be curious to read here about your observations. (I've read cross-references on this topic in the search section, by the way, but I'm raising this as a separate subject on how the unacceptable in our language have become (or are becoming) acceptable.
I suppose that we are much more aware of alternative pronunciations than the ones we grew up with, with we tend to regard as "correct". There is really nothing correct or incorrect about where the emphasis is placed in a word when two groups have developed independently and come up with a different interpretation. We spoke a long time ago about Bill Bryson's wonderful "Mother Tongue" and how some American words and speech are older than the words which replaced them in Britain (the use of gotten for example).
When I was young and foolish I would rail against American pronunciation of words. As an aside, I still dislike a fake accent. Compare Dick Van Dyke's "Mary Poppins" Cockney, widely regarded as hilariously bad, to Gwyneth Paltrow's heroic efforts. There are plenty of examples of Brits trying to sound American with greater or lesser success. This weekend there was a wonderful concert by Robbie Williams (the musician, not Robin, sadly he has never made it in the USA, and proved that even in a glamourous concert with black tie audience at the Albert Hall on BBC1 just after nine o'clock on a Saturday night, it really is Ok to broadcast the word f***, to link to an earlier thread ) singing Sinatra songs and varying between a "New Yoyk" accent and pure Stoke on Trent. It reminded me we don't grow up with the pure influences of our great grandparents. My parents sang "My Way" a lot more often than "The White Cliffs of Dover" and our ways of speaking evolved as a result.
One of the things that struck me in the early days of this group was whilst those of us in the rest of the world would recognise a North American variation as just that, a variation. Some of those from the US would fail to reciprocate. I think that we have moved on and I'm glad that it no longer only left to the Brits to point out our regional variations.
So part of the alternatives that we accept are to do with regional variations. I don't like the sound of "nucular", for example, but I no longer regard a person who uses it as an idiot.
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which reminds me of a another word "fil-um" for "film".
My grandfather (Phil, coincidentally) is of Irish descent and pronounces "film" in just that way, but other than that he has no trace of an Irish brogue. He also pronounces words like "bottle" and "metal" like "bah'll" and "meh'll" (with the ' signalling a glottal stop) which always sounds like an old-fashioned Boston accent to me. My brother and I rib him about his Boston accent by asking him if he got a "meh'll" (medal) for raising "cah'll" (cattle) in the "wah" (war). And, no he didn't.
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Dick Van Dyke's "Mary Poppins" Cockney, widely regarded as hilariously bad
About the same time as the Dick Van Dyke effort there was a widely used British version of a generic American accent that was perhaps equally humorous, combining a sort of rough approximation of a Texas accent with a rough approximation of a New England accent. There was a character in the movie White Nights who had that accent. He was supposed to be an American Embassy official who was from Minnesota. Interestingly, after a one week long trip to Russia in 1994 everyone seemed to have that accent back here in the States. The master of accents is, of course, Tracey Ullman, but she doesn't do accents, she does people and the people have accents.
Robbie Williams [white](the musician, not Robin[/white]
Robin Williams (of Robin and Linda Williams) *is a musician.
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lucy says: have noticed on some US television programmes that 'participants' often pronounce 'ask' as 'aks' ... Is this the norm?
IMHO, that pronunciation is exclusive to and common among members of the black community. lucy, as you watch the shows, let me know if this comports with your observations.
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Pooh-Bah
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>Tracy Ullman Yes, I meant to mention her, one of our better exports. These days we only see her on Ally McBeal, her accent made her blend in too well. I still think the worst British accent is that dreadful woman from Frasier who claims to be British but sounds like no accent I have ever heard.Off topic, I know but an interesting exercise in where the boundaries lie, it looks like the Robbie Williams (a musician not the actor) concert got a bit of a response:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/tv_and_radio/newsid_1664000/1664540.stm
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Well, WON, after buttoning up my spats, adjusting my pince-nez and dusting off my beaver top hat, I have to confess that I use 'employe' to refer to one male, 'employes' for two or more males, employee' for one female, and 'employees' for two or more females or two or more of both genders. A European would probably use the masculine version for mixed gender, but I use the feminine because it's more familiar to most people than the masculine, which seems to be entirely unfamilar to you. Yet it has not been that long since it was downright incorrect to refer to a man as an employee.
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So, if employe is male and employee is female in some circles, what about referee? Is refere male and referee female?
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Hmmm...interesting, BobY (or "The Cobalt Avenger" as I once dubbed thee! ) So if there is a gender basis for this form deferential (which sounds something akin to the German Die and Der for feminine and masculine connotation respectively) why doesn't this translate into other nouns with the same suffix usage such as payee, referee, attendee, etc.? Do you (or tsuwm?) have a citation that stipulates this usage in English, it would be intersting to see it. Or is it just a sort of common consensus thing like actor and actress, where, now, it seems, except for the Academy Award categories, actor is the word of choice for all thespians, with women using it in self-description as readily as men. But, then, we could never scrap princess for prince, could we? And when, approximately, did the gender forms of employe/ee fall out of favor in usage? You are now the second person next to our editor, BobY, that I ever heard of using this form! Thanks for the elucidating background on this!
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Time for a bit of ribaldry, WO'n: "But, then, we could never scrap princess for prince, "
And the majority of batchelors would not trade their mistress for a mister.
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It's not like payee, referee, etc., or not exactly. It is, of course, a noun formed from the past participle of the French verb employer = to employ. So un employé is a (male) person employed; une employée is a (female) person employed. These were originally both taken up into English and originally used the accent mark, which is now usually not used. There are others; divorce/divorcee come to mind. (I have to admit that I don't believe I've ever seen the masculine form of divorcee more than once and I don't believe I would ever use it.)
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this is quite interesting. OED2 has two separate entries for these:
employé - One who is employed. (In Fr. use chiefly applied to clerks; in Eng. use gen. to the persons employed for wages or salary by a house of business, or by government.) Hence also employée, a female employé.
employee - orig. U.S.
[f. employ + -ee.]
a. A person employed for wages; = employé, which it has now virtually superseded. b. (nonce-use.) Something that is employed.
so, if this is to be credited, we have two separate words with unique derivations -- the U.S. entry formed in the usual manner of adding -ee.
some years ago I remember seeing the 'employe' spelling (with no accent) in our company newsletter. they used it consistently for some time, but then it fell out of vogue again.
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Pooh-Bah
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Born 18 April 1961, London, England, UKBrought up in East Grinsted, West Sussex (a long way from Manchester), moved to LA 1981 Yes, I know, I'm afraid the use of the word "claims" is pure prejudice (mine). According to her fan site biography http://here.at/JaneLeeves, when they cast her as Daphne, the producers didn't know what a Manchester accent sounded like! Her accent is politely described as "posh" - the correct term is "weird". For a good Northern accent, try Jane Horrock's "Bubble" in Absolutely Fabulous.
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ask or ax?
In my youth (Ah! many years ago W.G & A.S) the use of "ax" was deemed to be a totally West of England rural pronunciation, as in, "Oi axed 'er to marry Oi, but 'er said 'er 'ud ev to ax 'er Dad. So Oi sez to 'er, Oi sez, 't'aint yer Dad as Oi wants to ax ter marry Oi!' "
The rest of the country, by and large, said "ask."
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"Oi axed 'er to marry Oi, but 'er said 'er 'ud ev to ax 'er Dad. So Oi sez to 'er, Oi sez, 't'aint yer Dad as Oi wants to ax ter marry Oi!' "
What a lovely piece of English! Note particularly the use of the nominative Oi in the objective case and the objective/possesive 'er in the nominative. So, tell us Rhuby, is Oi axing 'er to be Oi's wife, or is Oi axing 'er to be Oi wife?
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Yes--the Ask to aks is currently a characteristic of Black English-- but this is just a sub set of rural american english-- that includes Purty (or pertty, or any other varient spelling for Pretty)-- and YCLU the term for this sort of shifting of sounds.. i thought it was interesting, but not so interesting that i remember the term..
some other thread (or is it the beginning of this one.?) points out Brid-- has changed into Bird by the same process.
and curiously, to my ear I say Juring for During..but when i did an informal survey-- most people heard me say during-- yet i hear the sound as very different.. but not quite as changed as "Did you eat?" is in the expression "Jeet?" (but Jyeet might be a better spelling..) but getting there.
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and YCLU the term for this sort of shifting of sounds
Metathesis. It's the same process that gave us bird from brid.
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Thanks, tsuwm! Oi! What an intriguing dilemma! So, actually, anyone in editorial authority could arbitrarily decree the use of either form and be correct.
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I have been trying and trying to remember the particulars of a class I had in college that dealt with Black American dialect. The only thing I can remember is that several studies were done of a dialect from the mid-Atlantic coast area(real specific, aren't I  )that incorporated African grammer and some simular vocabulary with slave English. Aks was one of these words. It follows a natural African progression, somehow. If I can find my notes from that class..........Maybe someone else has heard of these studies?
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old hand
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incorporated African grammar and some similar
vocabulary with slave English. Aks was one of these words.
Interesting. Just to ad spice to this stew, I have known two black Caribbeans (One from Belize, formerly British Honduras, and one from one of the former French islands) Neither of them said aks; rather, they said ahsk. Both of these places acquired their Africans as slaves, yet their pronunciations were distinctly British.
Might we conclude that cutural isolation had something to do with the development of aks?
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Consuelo, Do you mean Gullah? it is a varient of english particular to the the coastal island of the Carolinias.. (north? south? one of them)
Hilton Head has been developed, but basically, from George (maybe even florida) there are a series of breakwater islands.. low flat dunes, with shallow bays and then the main land.. Whitman is on (or near) one in NJ.. I know all of NY's by name.. but only Hilton Head -- and Sea Isle-- as in sea isle cotton-- south of NJ (i know some of NJ barrier islands --Atlantic City is one one.. if you have ever driven there.. you know there is only one way in.. a causeway across the bay.)
all of them are low and frequently flooded in hurricane season. many barrier island are very isolated. the former slaves who remained on these island, grew more and more isolated.. and there english retains elizabethian vocabulary.. but also include some words from their former african languages..
gullah has been studied since it is supposed that not only do the speakers have elizabethian vocabularies, but also they retain old meanings, and pronounciations..
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The one that irks me most is the ever increasing usage of "dee-fence" rather than the original "d'fence".Okay, I know I'm a bit behind, but I've been both busy with school and not feeling well, therefore AWAD got left by the wayside for a little while. stales, would it make you feel better to know that dee-fence is also the way you'd say it in hockey in Canada? As in "I play defense". Or the opposing team gets the puck, the defenseman (or defensewoman, if it were my team and I was on the ice) is way out of position, the guy's about to have a breakaway, and people yell..."Who's on D?" Not "Who's on Duh?" Similarly I hear offense pronounced with the first "o" like "owe". It fits when you're saying "offense and defense". But it's actually quite awkward; I think I prefer the awe-fense pronounciation. Just my two cents (or 1.2 cents US$).
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Alexander Theroux, Paul Theroux the travel writer's brother, is the snootiest of the snooty, bar none. He criticizes, in one of his works of fiction, certain characters' use of "fordy" for "forty," "thirdy-five" for "thirty-five," and so on.
I listen hard to the speech here in central Virginia, and I would say I rarely, if ever, hear the "t" enunciated in thirty and forty, although it's there often in fifty, sixty, seventy, etc. However, in numbers such as forty-five, I hear "fordy-five." I attribute this to the alacrity of the tongue itself rather than ignorance, especially in the enunciation of numbers. We more often hear "liddle" rather than "little." These don't get my quince up as does "crown" for "crayon."
Best regards,
WW, who's gedding ready for about thirdy dinner guests, big and liddle
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On the subject of regional pronunciations (and with apologies to Kalamazoolians): The V-A-S-E, by James Jeffrey Roche [1847-1908]. (This is rather vertical, but is not available on-line.)
From the madding crowd they stand apart,
The maidens four and the Work of Art;
And none might tell from sight alone
In which had Culture ripest grown, --
The Gotham Million fair to see,
The Philadelphia Pedigree,
The Boston Mind of azure hue,
Or the soulful Soul from Kalamazoo,--
For all loved Art in a seemly way,
With an earnest soul and a capital A.
Long they worshipped; but no one broke
The sacred stillness, until up spoke
The Western one from the nameless place,
Who blushing said: "What a lovely vace!"
Over three faces a sad smile flew,
And they edged away from Kalamazoo.
But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred
To crush the stranger with on small word.
Deftly hiding reproof in praise,
She cries: "Tis, indeed, a lovely vaze!"
But brief her unworthy triumph when
The lofty one from the home of Penn,
With the consciousness of two grandpapas,
Exclaims: "It is quite a lovely vahs!"
And glances round with an anxious thrill,
Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill.
But the Boson maid smiles courteouslee,
And gently murmurs: "Oh, pardon me!
"I did not catch your remark, because
I was so entranced with that charming vaws!"
Dies erti praegelida
Sinistra quum Bostonia.
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Well, that was great fun reading, Keiva!
Now at top she's a Boston maid and at the bottom a Boson one--awfully close to bosun or boatswain...especially since she's speaking "courteouslee"...and what's a lee but a windy term of the sea...
I realize that it's the typo that's toppled the words here, but, heh, guys, it's made this poem a shipwrecked surprise...and a mental thing meddlesome minds hold in a vise...
So be ye Bostonian or Boatswainian, some fun's in this particular navicular vernacular.
Thanks for Jeffrey's poetry, K. Hope you don't mind my follying around with it.
Boats regards,
WordWain
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Who's on Duh?
Bean, I believe you have just handed me my latest sports insult. Thanks!
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Hi Whitman
An obvious, for me, citation, is one in which I still respect the gender differences (though I'm not sure about popular use): the person to whom you are engaged to be married.
As I understand it, a man is you fiance, a woman is your fiancee (I can't do the accents, but assume them?)
Any of our more erudite members have a comment on this? Perhaps I've been getting it wrong all this while...
And yes, hello to everybody - sorry I've been away this while and not responding to e-mails etc - have been, as they used to say, rusticating (at least metaphorically).
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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Dear shanks: it is very good to see a post by you again.
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do a Sol Campbell
Que-es-ce que ce, s'il te plaît?
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How do you pronounce this one: contro-VER-see-al or contro-VER-shul? I'm with the first, but I nearly always, if not always, hear the second.
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Welcome home, shanks.
And even US'ns manage to keep fiancé and fiancée straight. Most of the time.
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In reply to:
How do you pronounce this one: contro-VER-see-al or contro-VER-shul? I'm with the first, but I nearly always, if not always, hear the second.
Definitely your second option. But what about the noun form?
CON-tre-ver-see or con-TRO-ver-see?
Bingley
Bingley
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con-TRO-ver-see?
Never heard of such an animal.
============================================================
Sweet shanks, you had better write to me, or I'll give you another dose-I-mean-dish of raspberries...[not an idle threat e]
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Jackie
I've writ, I've writ. Promise.
BTW - con-TRO-vuh-see is much favoured by the new breed of TV presenters in the UK - you hardly ever hear CON-tro-ver-see (secondary accent on the 'ver') any more. It is my preferred choice, though, having been brought up on it as I was.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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Interesting, shanks...I've always heard and used fiancé for both. Maybe I've been hearing it wrong...?
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fiancé = the man
fiancée = the woman
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
fiancé = the man fiancée = thee woman
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I am indeed.
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
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