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#45176 10/21/01 12:38 PM
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wordwind, I'll try to get Rav Lipman to join us for this discussion.

Post-edit: No can do. Ars longa, vita brivis.

#45177 10/21/01 01:58 PM
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border collies

Well, what a coincidence.

Yesterday's cartoon in the Far Side daily calendar shows a room full of sheep at a party. They're just staring around not really doing anything. The door of the house is open and in it stands a dog. One sheep is saying to another. "Henry! Our party's total chaos! No one knows when to eat, where to stand, what to . . . Oh, thank God! Here comes a border collie!"

EDIT: Oh my, I've become an Old Hand . . . and I'm only 18.

#45178 10/21/01 02:08 PM
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Congratulations, Jazzo!


#45179 10/21/01 05:29 PM
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Indeed, Dr Bill, there is a Border Collie rescue service which places trained Border Collies at airports as working dogs to keep birds from endangering themselves and the planes on the runways. The first dog was placed, IIRC, at a Florida airport. With a busy, purposeful goal everyday, and plenty of attention, I'll bet that is one happy Border Collie.


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Dear Sparteye: what worries me about the Dulles Airport is that the geese fly across the runways to get to a large pond surrounded by grass close to the Terminal.


#45181 10/21/01 05:48 PM
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Thanks for the info, Keiva.

and I'll add, with more speculation than authority:

the slightly redundant nature of the original, translated as "rod and staff," is perhaps another manifestation of the redundancies which permeate the old testament, especially the pentateuch. According to Who Wrote the Bible?, Richard Friedman, there were four identifiable authors: one from Judah (J), one competitor from Israel (E), one later Aaronid priest (P), and one competing priest (D), who wrote separate works documenting the histories of the Jewish people from their own perspectives. The pentateuch was then consolidated into a single document which attempted to include the terms as used in all the various works, which is why the Bible is full of conflicts and redundancies.

It would be a bit like having had somebody from the US and somebody from England each write the story of the Revolutionary War in 1800, and then two others from the US and England write some updates in 1900, and then a fifth person putting the four documents together in 2000.


#45182 10/21/01 09:22 PM
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Bill, if every sheepdog which had tasted blood was put down, very few if any would still be alive and chasing sheep in New Zealand. And probably Australia. They regularly lose their cool and nip the sheep, some harder than others. The best cure for that, especially if you are working sheep with them in the yards, is a four-foot length of alkathene pipe.

Dogs are put down every week in New Zealand for molesting sheep. The vast majority of these are stray city dogs which have gone walkabout and discovered sheep - and their propensity to run away from dogs - for the first time. The range of breeds when one dog acts alone is usually in the German shepherd/rottweiler/doberman area. This is not a rule, however. Labradors, retrievers, terriers and spaniels have all been guilty of it. When a pack of dogs goes rogue and starts molesting sheep, even poodles and pomeranians have been involved. And even Keeshonds. The number of border collies involved is probably in proportion to the number of pet collies that exist as a percentage of the pet dog population. Farm dogs very rarely molest sheep off their own bat, although it is common enough. A pack of farm dogs would rather fight among themselves than chase sheep off duty. And frequently do unless the most aggressive ones are confined when they're not working.

Pure border collies as sheepdogs are reasonably rare in New Zealand. There is nothing magical about the breed, although it's a good start. Farmers will breed a good bitch with a good dog regardless of the breed. Collie ancestry is usually present and sometimes appears to be the dominant influence, but mostly they'd no more be able to claim a border collie pedigree than I would. My father in law was a noted dog breeder and handler when he was farming, and most of his dogs were real mongrels and looked it.

In New Zealand and Australia there are three "classes" of sheepdog. These are the eye dog (as you described), heading dogs (which are good at rounding sheep up and directing them en masse to a certain point and, usually, working the sheep in the yards) and huntaways. Huntaways are the "lone wolves" of the sheepdog world. A huntaway is sent up the hill to bring down sheep which have avoided being rounded up by the other dogs. They quite often go considerable distances out of sight of the musterer, and they have to be trustworthy. Of course, not all of them are. Stories about the judgement and sheep-herding ability of huntaways are the stuff that books are made of, literally.

Your link was interesting enough, but nothing in it was unique to border collies. I know a Jack Russell terrier which is as smart as a whip, although I won't bore you with dog stories. My first Keeshond was as cunning as a shithouse rat, and they're not notable as an "intelligent breed". My current one, however, isn't frequently called "Shitfer" for nothing ...





The idiot also known as Capfka ...
#45183 10/21/01 09:32 PM
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#45184 10/21/01 10:23 PM
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Dear CK: Sheep are so plentiful in New Zealand that the loss of a few doesn't hurt as bad as it would in UK.I remember reading about a couple million NZ sheep being slaughtered and buried because there just too damned many of them.To be sure many unpedigreed sheep dogs are very good. But if I were going to buy a young one, the Border collies are more likely to be satisfactory. I miss my wife, but I don't miss her sheep.

Dear WW: In Massachusetts, there are no more packs of stray dogs. The problem now is coyotes. A couple of my wife's friends had llamas, but they had a problem of being mean, and kicking kids. My wife had a Maremma, a huge Italian breed, that was a disappointment, in that he would desert his post to visit a female poodle who could have walked under his belly without touching him. Ain't love grand?


#45185 10/21/01 10:31 PM
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