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#39229 08/23/01 11:04 AM
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Where does this expression come from? I know what it means, something like being in control of a situation, making the relevant decisions and so on, especially when that means other people or groups follow your lead. But I am curious as to its origin. Any takers?



#39230 08/23/01 11:07 AM
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Maybe pool or snooker? When people with actual skill play (in stark contrast to myself ), don't they usually say which ball they're going to hit into which pocket? I thought that was "calling the shots". Hopefully someone better than me at snooker or pool can clarify that.


#39231 08/23/01 11:44 AM
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Having studied under a shipmate who could talk a mean game of pool I am in a position to maintain that a good player, once given a shot and a reasonably workable table, can control the game by leaving the ball in an advatageous postion for himself or, failing that, in a disadvantageous position for his opponent. He can gain a certain psychological advantage by calling his shots (and making them, of course) as he proceeds to clear the table of his balls.


#39232 08/23/01 12:59 PM
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I thought that at least in some games of pool, sinking a ball without having announced that you intended to sink it meant you could not add it to your score.


#39233 08/23/01 01:08 PM
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sinking a ball without having announced that you intended to sink it

I've mostly only played that rule for the eight ball. In the version wherein you have the low or high balls depending on the rack-breaking shot and must sink the eight ball (neither high nor low) to consumate your win (early sinking or the eight ball was an automatic loss) sinking the eight ball in any other than the pocket named also constituted a loss.

It just occurred to me that one who assigns the targets to individual gunners would also be said to "call the shots".


#39234 08/23/01 01:32 PM
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I thought that at least in some games of pool, sinking a ball without having announced that you intended to sink it meant you could not add it to your score.

As I alluded to above, my friends and I are all aware of this fact, but if we actually followed that rule, no game would ever be finished! I think pool as it is actually played by the masses is somewhat more lenient than what you see on TV.


#39235 08/23/01 01:43 PM
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indeed, in some variations of pocket billiards you *must call all of your shots. cf. The Hustler, the classic pool movie starring Paul Newman and Jackie Gleason. they played 'straight pool', wherein after 14 (of 15) balls have been sunk they are re-racked and the 15th ball is shot in such a way as to either break up the rack (usually with the cue ball) or to leave the cue hidden behind the rack (called a safe shot or safety). in the latter instance you have to call 'safety'.
The Billiard Congress of America (BCA) calls this game "14.1 Continuous"
-joe (i am not a shark) cool

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/rules/rls_141.shtml

p.s. - what you see on TV these days (at least on ESPN) is almost exclusively 9-ball. (see the link for official BCA rules) amazingly, in 9-ball you *don't have to call your shots. but. if you can't run the table off the break (which implies not only being able to call your shot, but being able to plan how you're going to run out after the break!) more than half the time, you won't win on TV.

#39236 08/23/01 03:50 PM
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I cannot remember from what corner of my brain this factoid's slumber is roused, but I rather thought calling the shot referred to the officer commanding or sighting a battery of guns.


#39237 08/24/01 02:05 AM
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Calling the shots is what the Gunner's Mate does (did) so that the gun or battery (be it ship borne or land based) could eventually hit its target. The impact point of each round was relayed back to the Gunnery Officer, changes were made to the inclination and/or azimuth (direction) of the gun/s - and whammo.

It was originally used for land based battles, with the observations made on the high ground and signalled back to the gun/s. Subsequently adapted for sea battles, +/- air or satellite support to call the shots. Nowadays controlled by radar, laser and/or video. Often wire guided as well.

stales


#39238 08/24/01 02:28 AM
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the Word Detective wades in (this is from one of his long issues that includes this towards the end, so I'll just shoot the whole thing in here):

Dear Word Detective: I am trying to find the origin of the phrase "call the shots" to use it in a sermon which asks the question "Who is calling the shots, you or God?" I have searched many web sites with no luck. -- Jim Mol, St. Mark Lutheran Church, Flint, Michigan.

Well, there's your problem. Haven't you heard? The web is over. Yeah, they all got fired and now they have to give back their Porsches and take jobs at Burger King, boo hoo. Anyway, there's been nobody home on the internet for quite a while. If you don't believe me, check out some of those news web sites. They've still got George Bush being President.

To "call the shots" means, of course, to be in control, to make the decisions, to run the show and to be the one truly in charge, especially as opposed to being merely a nominal leader or figurehead. Speaking of President Bush the Younger, and I report this solely to illustrate that definition, a recent poll indicates that around half of all Americans believe that someone other than Mr. Bush is actually "calling the shots" and running the government. Whether that perception is cynical or optimistic is, of course, best left as an exercise for the reader.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "calling the shots" seems to be a surprisingly recent phrase, having first appeared in print in the late 1960s, although it was probably in use as oral slang for years or even decades before someone thought to use it in print. An earlier phrase, "to call one's shots," meaning to announce exactly what one is going to do, apparently was current by the 1930s.

The real question, of course, is what all this shooting is about, and in the case of both "call the shots" and "call one's shots" the answer seems to be target shooting. In "calling one's shots," a target shooter (think Annie Oakley or the like) would announce in advance exactly where the target would be hit as a measure of his or her prowess. If someone else were "calling the shots," however, the shooter would be taking orders and hitting targets at that person's direction.

Note: Since the above column ran in newspapers I have been innundated with mail helpfully letting me know that "calling the shots" comes from the game of billiards or pool, wherein the player announces his shots in advance ("Eight ball in the side pocket" and so forth). Prior to researching the phrase, I, too, had assumed that it came from billiards, but the earliest citations I could find clearly refer to target shooting. That "calling the shots" occurs in billiards is clearly true. That it originated there is not.


http://www.word-detective.com/052301.html

#39239 08/24/01 02:55 AM
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"The Called Shot", the fabled home run hit by Babe Ruth in the 1932 World Series (I believe), when he supposedly pointed to the spot where the ball landed in the the outfield stands just before the pitch, is another famous use of the term (phrases from baseball?). Well after Annie Oakley, but certainly before the 1960s.
(And, AnnaS...Babe Ruth was a Chicago Cub then!)

#39240 08/24/01 03:03 AM
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oh! I can't let that calumny (slander/libel) go unchecked. the Babe was still with the Yanks, playing *against the Cubs in the world serious.
-joe (damn yankees) friday

http://members.iglou.com/kirk/

but (caveat emptor),
http://www.thebaseballpage.com/past/pp/ruthbabe/ruthbabe_32ws.htm

#39241 08/24/01 03:34 AM
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Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! Aw, I just wanted to see if all our baseball freaks were on their toes! but I must let my unseemly treasonous error stand...wow's gonna love this one...and me, once the walking baseball encyclopedia...ah, well And Ruth finished his career out with the Boston Braves, never did don a Cubbie uniform...sorry, folks! But I did get two great baseball sites to bookmark out of my embarrassment!...thanks, tsuwm! And I was just going to open Misc. with 101 new
posts on it. Think I'll sign-off and go to sleep, now, instead. My apologies to The Babe!....and to the Yankees, too! Again...ouch!


#39242 08/24/01 03:15 PM
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Goodness, WO'N, you should apologize profusely. The Cubs, at least in modern history, have not had any first-class player, even one in the twilight of his career. I believe it was the Cubs who employed the only one-armed player in the major leagues. Now, here's a challenge: without looking it up, can you name the one-armed player? I can; my father saw him play and told me about it.


#39243 08/24/01 03:36 PM
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Pete Gray and he played for the St. Louis Browns, not the Cubs. 1945, if memory serves. There's a movie about it called Winners Never Quit. YCLIU.


#39244 08/24/01 03:45 PM
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Pete Gray it was. My father's take was that with the war on, there were so few men available they had to settle for him. And damn, it was the Browns, not the Cubs. The only team worse than the Cubs (or the Senators).


#39245 08/24/01 03:53 PM
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Ruth finished his career out with the Boston Braves

Which brings up an interesting question. What did Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth and Willie Mays have in common? Besides being 1-2-3 in career home runs.


#39246 08/24/01 04:10 PM
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but there has been a more recent one-arm player in the majors -- a pitcher!


#39247 08/24/01 04:32 PM
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#39248 08/24/01 04:35 PM
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a more recent one-arm player in the majors

Or maybe just one-handed?


#39249 08/24/01 04:38 PM
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Nope
Nope
Nope (well maybe, but)


#39250 08/24/01 04:44 PM
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#39251 08/24/01 04:47 PM
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musick

Nope
Nope
Nope


#39252 08/24/01 04:57 PM
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#39253 08/24/01 05:00 PM
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>>a more recent one-arm player in the majors

>Or maybe just one-handed?

well, he did keep his glove on the stub while he pitched the ball.
http://www.usc.edu/student-affairs/dt/V130/N50/03-joe.50s.html
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/mlbleada.htm


#39254 08/24/01 05:02 PM
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Seufz

It's relatively rare.


#39255 08/24/01 05:38 PM
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The Cubs, at least in modern history, have not had any first-class player, even one in the twilight of his career.
And what is Sammy Sosa, pray tell?
e.g. tied with Ruth and McGuire for most seasons of 50+ home runs.
(I expect to serve you an extra helping of crow after the close of this season.)

#39256 08/24/01 07:27 PM
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#39257 08/24/01 07:32 PM
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The suspense is killing musick.

I forget the question. Oh, wait, yeah, that question.

The clue: Ruth finished his career out with the Boston Braves.




#39258 08/24/01 08:16 PM
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Ruth, Mays and Aaron all played for two different teams in respective cities: Ruth for the Boston Red Sox and Braves (bookending his years with the Yankees), Mays the NY Giants and Mets, and Aaron the Milwaukee Braves and Brewers (this in addition to being the only members of the 600-homer club (so far)).

it should be noted that Ruth was regularly hitting 50 in the '20s when no one else came close to it. nowadays Brady frappin' Anderson hits 50!
-ron obscurity


#39259 08/24/01 08:39 PM
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And remember the tremendous difference in the ball Babe Ruth was hitting for homers in the twenties. It was a beanbag comparied to today's rabbit ball.


#39260 08/24/01 11:15 PM
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I think tsuwm's right...but what about slugging percentage?
Fergie Jenkins pitched for the Cubs, and Billy Williams was a top rate player.
And I just saw a spot on the news that there's a guy in Canada who customizes maple bats for many of today's players, including Barry Bonds, as opposed to the traditional Louisville Slugger ash bats. The bats have a larger "sweet spot" and harder wood... now let's just give one of those to Ruth or Mays or Ted Williamshi, wow and see what happens! Sheesh!

And, yes, I willingly have entered the Baseball Hall of Shame for my major-league gaffe...but spare me some mercy, guys...please?


#39261 08/24/01 11:24 PM
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Jim Abbott was a top rated southpaw with one hand who broke in around '87. He showed a lot of promise and pitched superbly for a few seasons. What an inspiration it was to see him switch his glove on and off his bad hand to pitch and field with such speed and dexterity! I wanted to see him have a hall-of-fame career...I think everyone did. But he faltered along the way after the "wondrous" George Steinbrenner did a trip on his head when he pitched for the Yanks (I may be a Yankee fan, but I've never been a Steinbrenner fan!), and finally retired about two years ago, Still, the level of his achievement is a marvel in my mind. I'm eagerly waiting for the movie!


#39262 08/25/01 11:19 AM
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I willingly have entered the Baseball Hall of Shame for my major-league gaffe...but spare me some mercy, guys...please?
I would tell my brother, but that would be too cruel.




#39263 08/25/01 02:02 PM
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I think AsP kindly started a whole nother thread for you baseball junkies to chatter to yourselves!!



#39264 08/25/01 02:21 PM
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say, here's an idea: let's start up the baseball-cricket wars again.


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yeahbut. What about those of us who think they're BOTH boring?!


#39266 08/25/01 04:08 PM
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"yeahbut. What about those of us who think they're BOTH boring?!"
Then don't read it.
That shouldn't stop those of us who don't think that.

"ASAP kindly started a whole nother thread"
That thread goes under what category of the Main Index? Miscellany? or hijack some under-used category?



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that shouldn't stop....

Exactly. Problem arises only when another topic suddenly zooms off into the obscure reaches of one-legged penguin-fanciers etc! I only have a problem with topics that I know will bore me if they are flagged as continuation of something else entirely - I feel about most sports topics like some feel about politics and religion


and FWIW, quoting AsP:

Might be better if we confined said discussion here, folks (speaking from experience )

http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=31712


#39268 08/25/01 08:00 PM
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Let those who find any topic boring either ignore it, or think of a better one.


#39269 08/25/01 08:09 PM
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You are completely missing the point, Bill. It is cumbersome to ignore stuff on this board if you don't know it's coming. Hence our periodic attempts to flag up "Food & Recipes", "Politics Warning", and similar topics - in the certain knowledge that some of us will thereby choose to avoid loading (repeatedly) to a thread identified as a topic of interest but subsequently converted to a topic of less than interest (and quite likely nothing to do with language either, though that may be no bar in itself). Tain't much to ask - I am glad to avoid offence to those who find (say) politics boring by clearly flagging something like that. And you need to just be aware that the interminable minutiae of a foreign sport is about as interesting in a world conversation as watching paint dry.
/rant


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Dear Mav: I just don't have any problem. If I find a thread or a post boring, I just go elsewhere. I'm don't understand your problem. Maybe my having DSL spares me time waiting for posts to appear. I am having one problem that puzzles me: A post will start to come in, and then everything fireezes for up to a couple minutes, sometimes longer. I think it is those bastards at PacBell,net who keep timing out on me with no notice or admission that they are doing it. It's not only in AWAD. Hope you like that URL about the jerk who got caught up on the Statue of Liberty. http://www1.sympatico.ca/news/Fullstories/w082338.html Bill


#39271 08/25/01 08:54 PM
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Hey, mav! How come all of a sudden you're calling the shots?how's that for a sneaky way to get back on topic And, besides, everyone is just a click away from the relief of their boredom. Wasn't there just a rugby star conversation off-topic somewhere? Nobody waved a flag at that.


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#39273 08/25/01 09:58 PM
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Fine. So in the interest of diplomacy, may I suggest that it appears to me we are all agreed on the following:

-- No topic is vebotin, but
-- A topic that may be of such less-than-general interest should be clearly "flagged" as such, so that it can be even-more-easily ignored by those who so wish?

Because if that's the consensus, the sole issue is what methods of flagging to use -- procedure, not substance.


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#39275 08/25/01 10:36 PM
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Musick, didn't you yourself start a "sports" thread just a few hours ago? One that I very much like, I might add.


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Dear Max: while I don't know anything about your sports, I am quite willing to try to learn. And if I get baffled, as WhitmanO'Neill just said, relief is only a click away.


#39277 08/25/01 11:16 PM
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Regarding the original question...
When I speculate on the origin of "calling the shots," I get a mental picture of a guy with a bullhorn in a chair marked "Director" (hence "shots" would refer to camera shots). Could there be any validity to this, or did we already decide it was something else?


#39278 08/25/01 11:38 PM
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tsuwm wins: They each ended their respective major league careers in the same city they started in but for a different team.


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guy with a bullhorn in a chair marked "Director"

I think you're on to something there, francais. Especially hearkening back to the silent film era when there was no need for silence on the set.

And how do you know to wave a flag when you don't have any idea your post is apt to trigger a digression from the topic? My Babe Ruth "Called Shot" post, which set off the baseball detour, was an honest speculation into the etymology of the phrase in question. If I hadn't slipped and said he was playin' for the Cubs, none of this dialogue would have transpired...but Yankee haters are vultures, and Cubs fans are too oversensitive ...so should have I put up: ATTENTION: JUST IN CASE I MAKE A MISTAKE IN THIS POST ABOUT BASEBALL LORE THAT MIGHT TRIGGER OFF A FLURRY OF POSTS ON THAT SPORT I'M DECLARING A BASEBALL YART FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T CARE TO READ FURTHER DIALOGUE ABOUT THIS TOPIC, AND WHO, BY THE WAY, COULD BE CLICKED AWAY ENJOYING A WHOLE NEW THREAD BY NOW IF THEY HADN'T TAKEN THE TIME TO READ THIS COURTEOUS MESSAGE...?


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In reply to:

JUST IN CASE I MAKE A MISTAKE IN THIS POST ABOUT BASEBALL LORE THAT MIGHT TRIGGER OFF A FLURRY OF POSTS ON THAT SPORT I'M DECLARING A BASEBALL YART...


Whitman, I think (unless I am misreading your post) that you have extended (perhaps erroneously) the generally accepted usage of YART, which in the past has been applied in the main to warn about warmed over topics. while the discussion of YARTs itself certainly qualifies as a YART, and while there has (on rare occasion) appeared the odd self-YART, I don't think that we can expect folks to predict YARTish digressions when they make a post.

or did I just obviousize your point?

(no, having just reread what I've typed, I don't think that would properly characterize what I've done....)


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#39282 08/26/01 03:06 AM
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Oh, Lord!...I think I'm having a YARTiac arrest! is it Joe-the Surgeon-Friday, or Joe-the-[gulp!]Detective-Friday...or both?


#39283 08/26/01 03:23 AM
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Beloved people: p'raps in subsequent posts, we will find that we have gotten up on the right side of the bed.
Darlin' maverick, you are right: there is at least one baseball thread, somewhere in the bowels of Miscellany, but.
I notice that at least two of the people who have posted about baseball here are too "young" in their membership to have been around when that thread was near the top in visibility.

Merci, M. Pi, for attempting to return to the topic.

Sweet Max, I applaud your self-restraint, sir!

Lovely WO'N., I don't think he meant that it was up to you to put up the warning flag--you are not responsible for what follows your posts!
=========================================================

'Tis indeed aggravating, particularly if one is pressed for time, to eagerly begin reading a thread, only to find that it diverts on to something not only different, but to something that one has no interest in. However, it has been a given from the beginning of the board that posts will not stay on-topic--we're too "maverick" (ha!) a bunch for anything as tame and ordinary as that! I think that more often than not, the change of topic leads to something new and interesting enough that I am willing to consider the boring ones as something that "comes with the territory", at least in an instance like this when it just seems to happen, with no premeditation. You-all are a great bunch of folks--'scuse me, I just remembered the topic: a crowd of great folks!






#39284 08/26/01 03:28 AM
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>I just remembered the topic: a crowd of great folks!

geez, j. can't you even get the topic right?! this here is "calling the shot", not "collective nouns"!


#39285 08/26/01 03:33 AM
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Hey, I didn't say the topic of THIS thread, did I??


#39286 08/26/01 03:49 AM
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#39287 08/26/01 09:09 AM
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Just to add my two pence worth, since I was the originator of this post with a question. In my mind, I am all for freedom of discussion and flexibility in the use of the board, but in my heart, I am afraid I have to agree with those who protest the "hijacking" of the word topic by a l-e-n-g-t-h-y discussion of an entirely different topic that doesn't show signs of abating at all. Yes, I realise that I am moving the goalposts here, but let me explain. Given that I asked the original question, I keep coming back to this thread when there are new posts to see what else you knowledgeable lot have to say about "calling the shots". And yes, then I find after three or four clicks, and a couple of minutes total loading time, that the five or six new posts are all about baseball. You may say, this is not much time, or "mouse clicking energy" spent on checking the thread and seeing that it's got nothing to do with my query, but believe me, time and clicks do add up, as do the pennies in my ISP's charitable collection-box. My personal interest or disinterest in baseball is not *really relevant, though as it is, I am completely uninterested. The point is, I come here expecting one type of discussion (unrealistically, some would say ), and find that it is all about something else, a topic so interesting to others (I *can understand that) that it looks like it could go on and on, so entailing a repeat of the above experience for me. I am not saying anything new here; we have all seen how sports threads tend to do exactly that. I will frankly admit that I may become a wee bit irritated, but my feeling, at that point, is that the sports discussion could move to a new thread, or revive an old one, something that has also been done on this board before without any problem.

So far so good, at least subjectively speaking. But then, what is the difference between a word thread that has become a sports thread, and a "mechanical word" thread that has become a discussion of bicycle spokes and the different cycling holidays that different AWADers have enjoyed (or not enjoyed at all, as the case may be )? I would say it's the nature of the topic. Yes, we DO talk about pretty much everything here, but, as in real life, there are topics which are more prone to circular arguments, controversy, endless disagreement, heated discussion and conflict. I would say they are first and foremost religion and politics and perhaps ethical issues, and on a somewhat lower scale, sports. Many people have strong feelings about these, and it is (I think) a matter of consensus that these topics are often avoided in social settings just so as not to originate arguments (let it be said, just how mere sports talk could originate arguments is beyond me, but hey...)

Obviously on this board there is no question of curtailing members' freedom to talk about whatever they wish, and there are takers for almost any topic, which is great. But I still think (some of you will undoubtedly disagree with me) that religion, politics, ethics and sports are tricky enough to deserve a bit of special treatment. I would say that generally speaking any thread that morphs into a politics, religion or sports thread deserves to set up a separate thread where there is space for it to go on, with a clear topic heading that explains what it is, where there are no remnants of the original topic sticking out all over (especially for flatmoders), where all interested parties can post and discuss, and where there are no whingeing grouches like myself making posts that are far too long to be reader-friendly.

I LIKE this place!




#39288 08/26/01 09:48 AM
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Those of us who have been here for a while know what topics however enthralling for some cause yawns in others. Sports, whether baseball, cricket, all-in wrestling, curling, or anything else is certainly one. Others will have other examples. No doubt there are some who groan every time I wrench a thread round to bring in matters Indonesian. Some of us are not above stirring a bit, either. Might I suggest that, after two or three posts on one of these contentious topics arising from a digression, whoever wishes to continue it simply start a new thread with a note on the old one saying a new one has been started. I'm not suggesting that a new thread be started every time we digress (though it would drastically reduce average thread length ), just in cases where the poster knows that his or her statements are bound to create an immediate counter-attack from those who hold deeply held opposing views.

Bingley


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I agree with the good sense of Marianna and Bingley. As for the general drift of digression, we have long established that as our forté!

I think what USns have to bear in mind is that those of our group based in many other territories have to connect via slower, flakier and paid-for-by-the-second modems, so the click-through of redundant threads is a real issue.

However, in the general run of things it's one we all cheerfully subscribe to out of interest in where a discussion may lead next. Anyone who knows me at all by now knows my intention is not in the least to inhibit any topic of discussion under the sun. Just warn me if you're going into an obsessive Raindance huddle over who's on third base!


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USns have to bear in mind is that those of our group based in many other territories have to connect via slower, flakier and paid-for-by-the-second modems, so the click-through of redundant threads is a real issue.


I did not know that, thank you for pointing it out Mav! You have made a ticklish subject just a matter of good manners.

Proper "headlining" of our posts is often overlooked. If used and changed consistantly to reflect the content of the post it would be a great help. "Headlining" a post also tends to clarify the thinking and promotes sharper prose, said the former Editor and headline writer!
Imagine having to read a newspaper with no headlines over stories or the stories had mostly the same headline ! Daunting.

My MD has me on a new medication so if my posts are a bit squiffy....well! That's my story an' I'm stickin' to it.



#39291 08/26/01 03:33 PM
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What a delightful word, wow! Where'd you get it?
Delighted to have you back, Sweetie, by the way; and I am also missing one of the board's real treasures: Avy. Are you back yet, Dearest?


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Regarding Marianna's plaintive plea, as the originator of this thread, that her original inquiry not go unrequordled:

Our sports digression seems to have ended, but our digression concerning the propriety-of-digressions continues in full fury.

Bingley had the answer: Might I suggest that, after two or three posts on one of these contentious topics arising from a digression, whoever wishes to continue it simply start a new thread with a note on the old one saying a new one has been started. But no one seems to have yet pulled the trigger to implemented this.

Per Bingley's good sense, there's now a new thread started, under Info and Announcements, titled Digressions.

S'all right?




#39293 08/26/01 06:36 PM
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S'all right!
Close da box.


#39294 08/27/01 04:17 AM
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I associate squiffy with pre-WWII upper class slang, meaning drunk. Presumably wow means that any dimunition in the clarity and grace of her posts is to be attributed to side affects of medication.

Bingley


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#39295 08/27/01 07:20 AM
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Thank you all very much for your ideas (and digressions) on "calling the shots" . And many, many cookies for Keiva .

Edit-in: Wey-hey! Here I am, an enthusiast!


#39296 08/27/01 10:34 AM
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Congratulations, Marianna! (But we already had the idea that you are an enthusiast! ) Safe traveling to you,
Dear.


#39297 09/07/01 04:19 PM
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for all you UKn's frustrated by Too Many Baseball posts, herewith something from today's startribune:
http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/676640.html



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