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#38300
08/11/01 04:39 AM
08/11/01 04:39 AM
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Max Quordlepleen Offline OP
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Re: Palestine from Philistine? #38301
08/11/01 03:15 PM
08/11/01 03:15 PM
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Sparteye Offline
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From Origins A Short Etymological Dictionary of Modern English, Eric Partridge:

Palestine, whence Palestinian

The adj derives from L Palestinus (var of Palaestinus), adj of Palestina, var of Palaestina, trin of Gr Palaistine, itself from H Pelesheth. The inhabitants were, in H, Pelistim or Pelishtim (cf Ar Filastin), whence Gr Philistinoi, LL Philistini, both pl, whence, by b/f, the F sing Philistin, whence E Philistine (n, hence adj). Strictly, the Philistines inhabited SW Palestine; "after harassing the Israelites for centuries they were finally assimilated by the native Semites" (Webster) and were regarded as barbarians, hence Philistine, an unenlightened person, hostile to art, literature, thought, the transition being aided, both in E and in F, by G Philister, a G universities' (orig, theological students') slang name -- at Jena as early as C17 -- for a townsman, hence outsider, hence any ignorant person. First used in France by Theophile Gautier in 1847 (B & W), Philistine was "introduced into England by Matthew Arnold (cf Judges, xvi, 9)" (Walshe). Hence Philistinism.


Re: Palestine from Philistine? #38302
08/14/01 03:27 PM
08/14/01 03:27 PM
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RhubarbCommando Offline
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Damn - and all this time I've gone along thinking she was gertrude Stein's sister.


Re: Palestine from Philistine? #38303
08/14/01 04:44 PM
08/14/01 04:44 PM
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Keiva Offline
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Do I understand that per Sparteye's sources, "Philistine" was derived from Palestine, not of separate origin?

The Bible recounts that the Philistines were slain with the jawbone of an ass, so I'd best jawbone no further here.


Re: Palestine from Philistine? #38304
08/14/01 06:34 PM
08/14/01 06:34 PM
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wwh Offline
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To re-capitulate, Palestine was a name for the whole region, and only recently applied in adjective form to the Muslim population of the area. The Philistines were a small, possibly non-Semitic, group inhabiting a relatively small part of the area.


Re: Palestine from Philistine? #38305
08/14/01 07:25 PM
08/14/01 07:25 PM
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Faldage Offline
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Additional note to Sparteye's excellent etymology (and I parbly don' need to tell most of you this). The Classical Greek phi was not an unvoiced labio-dental fricative nor even an unvoiced bilabial fricative but rather an unvoiced aspirated bilabial plosive (the pi was an unvoiced unaspirated bilabial plosive). Thus Pelistim and Philistinoi were not that far apart, phonetically.


Re: Palestine from Philistine? #38306
08/15/01 08:24 AM
08/15/01 08:24 AM
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Jakarta
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Bingley Offline
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Not all Palestinians are Muslims. There are quite a few Palestinian Christians as well.

Bingley


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Re: Palestine from Philistine? #38307
08/15/01 12:49 PM
08/15/01 12:49 PM
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Cape Cod, MA, US
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Flatlander Offline
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Phaldage says the phollowing:

and I parbly don' need to tell most of you this...The Classical Greek phi was not an unvoiced labio-dental fricative nor even an unvoiced bilabial fricative but rather an unvoiced aspirated bilabial plosive (the pi was an unvoiced unaspirated bilabial plosive).

Not only did you need to tell me that, but you need to explain the difference (if you'd be so kind).


Re: Palestine from Philistine? #38308
08/15/01 01:55 PM
08/15/01 01:55 PM
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RhubarbCommando Offline
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Whilst agreeing that the two sounds produced in aspirated and unaspirated form would, indeed, be similar, how can we be certain that that was the way that the Classical Greeks made the sounds?


Re: Palestine from Philistine? #38309
08/15/01 02:02 PM
08/15/01 02:02 PM
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Bingley Offline
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ph is usually pronounced /f/ in English. The sound /f/ is made using the upper teeth and the lower lip (hence labio-dental) and not quite bringing them together, thus creating turbulence in the air flowing between them (hence fricative). The vocal cords are not vibrating (so the sound is unvoiced (/v/ is pronounced in the same way as /f/ but with the vocal cords vibrating, i.e., /v/ is voiced)). /f/ is therefore an unvoiced labio-dental fricative.

A plosive (also called a stop) is a sound made by temporarily stopping the flow of air altogether. An unvoiced bilabial (two lips) plosive would be a /p/, while a voiced bilabial plosive would be a /b/.

Some sounds are aspirates. There's a tiny puff of air blown out. The difference between aspirated and unaspirated is not significant for meaning in English, and is not shown in the spelling system. It does occur in, for example, the difference between the pronunciation of /p/ (e.g., pit)at the beginning of a syllable and /p/ at end of a syallable (e.g., tip). In some languages this difference makes the difference between different letter sounds (I think it's true of some Indian languages, come in please, Avy). We're not very good at hearing or producing the difference, just as Japanese have problems with /l/ and /r/, which to us are blindingly obviously different.

Phi and pi were the aspirated and unaspirated versions of an unvoiced bilabial plosive. I will now go and lie down for a while.

Bingley


Bingley
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