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There has been an overwhelming tendency for radio newsreaders to use the word "underwhelm" recently.
Do others amongst you feel that, whilst it was a humourously effective perversion of "overwhelm" the first time it was used, that it poses a threat to the language? Or is it yet another evolution that we have to shrug our shoulders over and try not to wince too much each time we hear it?
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I haven't heard it yet, and I'm not clear as to how it is used. Example, please? Also, how is it different from unmoved or unimpressed?  Marianna
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I think "underwhelmed" is used to mean that the occasion/act/presentation was intended to overwhelm the viewer, but utterly failed to do so, leaving them instead underwhelmed. Anyone else?
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Yes, I agree with Max. I don't think there necessarily has to be an original overt intention to overwhelm, but that the phrase is, indeed, an ironic response to an event that is claimed to be "a bit special."
And yes, Max, it does fill a niche if used as an aid to irony - but even if confined to that speciality, it could (has?) easily become devalued through over use.
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Thanks for clarifying the meaning of underwhelm. Even if I was aiming for an ironic effect, I'd still probably say "indifferent" instead... Marianna
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<<Do others amongst you feel that, whilst it was a humourously effective perversion of "overwhelm" the first time it was used, that it poses a threat to the language? >>
Oh, maybe--but I'd be more inclined to call this overwhelming hyperbole. :)
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here's an up-to-the-minute (and underwhelming) spotting from today's paper:
Now music scholars will get what they'll wish they hadn't wished for with "Bride of the Wind," Bruce Beresford's painfully careful, historically literal and criminally underwhelming portrait of, among others, classical music's towering late-romantic genius, Gustav Mahler. The movie opened Friday at the Lagoon theater in Minneapolis.
now, for 64¢, which word fits better in the phrase "criminally underwhelming"?
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now, for 64¢, which word fits better in the phrase "criminally underwhelming"?
Boring?
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>>now, for 64¢, which word fits better in the phrase "criminally underwhelming"?
>Boring?
Tedious? Narcoleptic? Yawn-fest?
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now, for 64¢, which word fits better in the phrase "criminally underwhelming"?
Tedious? olet lucernam? Longueur-ridden?
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...classical music's towering late-romantic... Well, which one is he... late-romantic or classical? Certainly irritating!  Towering? Genius? among others? ...and my favorite 'painfully careful'. 
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Well, which one is he... late-romantic or classical?
Yes.
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musick kvetches> Well, which one is he... late-romantic or classical?
Certainly irritating!
Towering? Genius? among others? ...and my favorite 'painfully careful'.
Please keep in mind that said review was written in Minneapolis, where our brains are just now experiencing spring thaw. Patience with the Northerners, please!
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musick kvetches> Well, which one is he... late-romantic or classical?This is no kvetch. A purist attitude, maybe - but none the worse for that. Musick has touched a nerve that response to my irritation as well; unfortunately, one that has to be hidden in most bar-room conversations because the term "classical," as applied to music, has been debased out of all recognition. Except amongst people like musick and I, of course. 
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RC states ... A purist attitude, maybe - but none the... appreciation unending! ...as for the kvetch-ups (as opposed to "catch-ups")... (cross-threading he quotes Monty Burns... "ketchup? - catsup? - ketchup? - catsup?"...  ) I guess I must claim silence since I'm talking about 'words' and not 'music' (for a change).  [scampering away with some speck of understanding remaining-e].
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I disagree. I perfectly understand the terminology of music appreciation, but this word definitely means different things in different contexts. If in general discourse, it is commonly placed in apposition to 'popular', so you just have to discriminate based on the nature of the conversation: there is simply no point in grumbling about the word having alternative meanings. Kvetch up, the train is leaving with or without you!
clas·si·cal (klăs'ĭ-kəl)
adj.
Of or relating to the ancient Greeks and Romans, especially their art, architecture, and literature.
Conforming to the artistic and literary models of ancient Greece and Rome.
Versed in the classics: a classical scholar.
Of or relating to the most artistically developed stage of a civilization: Chinese classical poetry.
Music.
Of or relating to European music during the latter half of the 18th and the early 19th centuries.
Of or relating to music in the educated European tradition, such as symphony and opera, as opposed to popular or folk music.
Of, relating to, or being a variety of a language that is epitomized by a prestigious body of literature.
Standard and authoritative rather than new or experimental: classical methods of navigation.
Well-known; classic: the classical argument between free trade and protectionism.
Of or relating to physics that can be described without the use of quantum mechanics or relativity.
Relating to or consisting of studies in the humanities and general sciences: a classical curriculum.
clas'si·cal'i·ty (-kăl'ĭ-tē)or clas'si·cal·ness n.
clas'si·cal·ly adv.
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The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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the term "classical," as applied to music, has been debased out of all recognition
I know that "classical" is only one type of the music we call "classical," and I know that some buffs frown on its more general use, but what is a better general term for what most people understand to be "classical music"? I for one would be happy to change, but I've never been given a better option.
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I agree, Flats. Seems the way I encounter this frown most often is when people are particularly keen to assert their sense of ownership of the music heritage. Separating out lexical meaning and personal 'positioning' is one of the things that fascinates me about use of language.
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I know that "classical" is only one type of the music we call "classical," … but what is a better general term ?That which we laughingly refer to as serious music. Or as Rhuby so aptly states it: Except amongst people like musick and I, of course [with inlcusion of what is, no doubt, the irony icon ()]
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Of or relating to European music during the latter half of the 18th and the early 19th centuries.
Of or relating to music in the educated European traditionserious musicYet Another example of meaning shift. I am continually surprised at how we all* take take so much pride of ownership in what are, in the final dusk of day, only received definitions (or as mav characterized it so finely, personal "positioning"). -ron obvious *me too! surprised enough, obviously, to do a double-take.
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Being a fan of "classical" music myself, I can tell you establishing a commonly-accepted word for it is hopeless. We know that there are two senses of the word; the strict sense which refers to Mozart et al, and the general sense which covers music from Josquin des Pres to Philip Glass, but with notable exclusions. You can't even get agreement on what constitutes classical music in the broad sense. Does it include Scott Joplin? J.P. Souza? Paul Simon? Stephen Foster? If not, why not? Until music lovers can get general agreement on what is and is not classical music in the broad sense, you can't expect to agree on a label for it.
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I believe terms we can all agree on here will be descriptive, and therefore eliminate the use of "classical" for anything else but it's original (specific) musical reference. The style of music is the easiest way for *all to agree, and it is those unfamiliar (especially ones that organize music stores and (shame on you) radio stations) that make the decision to group all these together. You can't find Elvis and Brubeck (not the best example I'm sure) in the same stack (or on the same radio hz) for specific reasons... not instrumentation and not year of popularity... yet these distinctions become obvious only when familiar with both. I'm not sure if an acceptance of grouping Madrigals and what-ever-it-is-that-we-can-call-what-Philip Glass-composes together isn't adding "logs to the fire". The broader term "classical" comes directly out of not being *prone to recognize the difference, a laziness turned acceptance (perhaps)... (with no doubt) a definition after the true 'classical period' definition was *firmly in place... Even the afore mentioned other uses of the broader term classical seem to be more specific than this musical use, and I'm only slightly perplexed as to why being specific here is different than all the other instances on this board where (G-d forbid) certain lines are crossed... What was the AHD "thinking" when it allowed the qualifier "European tradition" into "the" book (don't start this one now, save it for a rainy day-shutting myself down-e). ...are particularly keen to assert their sense of ownership of the music heritage. Separating out lexical meaning and personal 'positioning'... Now, which music heritage are we talking about? ...commonly placed in apposition to 'popular', so you just have to discriminate based on the nature of the conversation... I do agree. However, rarely will I have a discussion (since someone brought up personal positioning) where the distinction between classical and popular is clear enough within my understanding of the words for them to make their point. When asked to be more specific, they usually can and do (or I do for them). If Scott Joplin (who is a classical representation of a specific style) and Josquin des Pres (is as well) are to be collected into a 'term' (still wondering why would we) it should be "classic music" (not classical) (are we back to the "function ality" arguement?) ... besides, all classic music was popular at one point (he-he-he). .. and on top of all this meandering, no one else commented about "painfully careful".
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Jazz! (in case you think we really have a problem with *classical, Bob) To demonstrate my earlier point about meaning in context, I am a trustee of a small charity devoted to widening access to music (especially for young people). I have no particular problem in practice, talking to say the Arts Council about "early music" or say the general public about "classical music". Each context has constructed its own range of language and accepted meanings - it is the normal sensitivity we are all likely to show in using a different 'voice' when requesting a loan from our bankers compared to asking our partner to gis some munny The only problems tend to occur when one community impacts on the discourse of another, and then the architecture gets rearranged...
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I feel like underwhelm is a nice word. It may be an imaginary word, but I think that if it is used correctly, it could be effective.
Underwhelmed: the anti-thesis of being overwhelmed... to be overly comfortable with the amount of understanding/work/thought/creativity required by something. Where overly comfortable is irritating in the same manner that being overwhelmed is irritating.
How does that sound?
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How does that sound?underwhelming
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Dear NoEffects -- Welcome aBoard!
I tend to parables myself and so to illustrate use of underwhelm :
Mother is expecting a ticket for a luxury cruise to England aboard the QE II for her birthday, Instead, the adult children present her with a ticket on a local river cruise.
Mother is undewhelmed. (Of course she smiles and says thank you...never letting on. That's what Mothers do!)
It's an oddly American usage, I think.
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I think that "uniquely" American usage of underwhelm works, but I think that overwhelmed can be more than just an overload of expectations realized, etc. Like when one is dealing with a lot of work and deadlines and such, they experience a feeling of being overwhelmed with pressure and responsibility. I think that underwhelm could also apply to someone who is wanting of more responsibility/work... it can express their displeasure with having so little responsibility.
Ex. Sarah's children have finally grown up and left the house. She now feels underwhelmed with the work left to do around the house. She misses her tiresome chores and nagging dilemmas.
Thank you for the nice welcome. I was just told about this site a week or so ago, and I like what I see so far.
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Hi, NE - please treat my little joke in the spirit intended, as welcoming you to the nuthouse like one of the family!
I am not so sure this is uniquely USnism. In contrast to Rhuby, as a Brit I am very comfortable with this as a distinctive way of saying "expectations disappointed" or something similar. When you look at the etymolgy of whelm it seems a reasonable new backformation of a word with fine (Old) English pedigree:
whelm (hwĕlm, wĕlm)
tr.v., whelmed, whelm·ing, whelms.
To cover with water; submerge.
To overwhelm.
[Middle English whelmen, to overturn, probably alteration (influenced by helmen, to cover) of whelven, from Old English -hwelfan (as in âhwelfan, to cover over).]
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The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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Dear NoEffects ... Could it be we are both correct?
A word with several meanings .... who'd a thunk it!
Mercy!
Not to worry ...it's a fad word ... or is it?
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Long as mav is going to bring reason (i.e., the etymology of whelm) into the fray let me suggest that underwhelm *should mean to undercut, to wash away the foundation of as in "Mary's patent application was underwhelmed by her colleague's false claims of prior discovery of the phenomenon".
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well, as is our wont, we seem to be late to the party:
[f. under-1 10a, after overwhelm v.]
trans. To leave unimpressed, to arouse little or no interest in. Chiefly as under"whelmed pa. pple. and ppl. a., and under"whelming ppl. a.
1956 T. K. Quinn Giant Corporations viii. 61 He wrote+commending the action of one of the giant corporations for a+price reduction at a time when prices were rising. I was underwhelmed, and investigated. 1968 Punch 17 July 81/2, I agree that the wretched parents are not to be penalised till 1969 and I'm sure they are under-whelmed with gratitude. 1970 Daily Colonist (Victoria, B.C.) 3 July 47/1 Victoria Fair got off to a quite underwhelming start+with a concert in the University of Victoria gym. 1972 Times Lit. Suppl. 29 Dec. 1569/4 Both the prose and the play are underwhelming. 1978 Ottawa Citizen 2 Mar. 3/3 The Sparks Street post office ran out of applications+but a survey of other post offices+showed the public was generally underwhelmed. 1984 Observer 15 Jan. 9/3 He was+fluent in speech and crashingly dull. If there was an opportunity to be underwhelming, he unfailingly seized it.
[from the Usual Gang of Madmen at the OED]
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Long as mav is going to bring reason sorry - must have stepped in something
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sorry - must have stepped in something Did it sound like a bell? Or did you just chime in with your reason?
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Andrew Ford, an Australian writer of music and about music, was asked this question in a radio interview last week. He prefers to use the term "art music" rather than classical or serious music.
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My sweet paulb (I am always SO pleased to see a post of yours, Dear Heart), I greatly fear that you may have unleashed a spate of further outraged discussion--we shall see. Did he explain why, that you recall?
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How about unpopular music?
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That's what we call 'Jazz' (scampering away in-the-now-e)
I couldn't resist.
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That's what we call 'Jazz'
All I'm going to say is that Britney Spears is quite popular. You judge for yourself.
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Bill McLaughlin*, host of the NPR radio program Saint Paul Sunday, also discussed the use of "classical music." He allowed as how he couldn't really come up with a better term, and that the canon hi mav! is established mainly by those-who-determine-what-their-orchestras/choruses-will-play/sing-each-year worldwide.
So I guess we gotta include John Cage.
---
*Faldage, pls correct me if I misspelled the feller's name.
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So I guess we gotta include John Cage.
And the Beatles. I've a CD of Beatles songs done by the London Philharmonic.
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Bill McLaughlin*
*Faldage, pls correct me if I misspelled the feller's name.
Well, it looked good to me but he seems to have a nextra G in it. It's McGlaughlin.
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Britney Spears is quite popular.
Have any of y'all heard that Britney Spears is Burning Spear's half sister?
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Bill McLaughlin*
*Faldage, pls correct me if I misspelled the feller's name.
Well, it looked good to me but he seems to have a nextra G in it. It's McGlaughlin.
Could it be the name has a trace of the Irish spelling!
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a trace of the Irish spelling
These names suffer great indignities when manhandled by the Sassenach. See Maguire, McGwire, McWire, McGuire, etc.
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" Maguire, McGwire, McWire, McGuire, etc."
Those spellings were self-inflicted. Of the many Sassenach crimes, this was not one.
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I think that might just be it!!! HAHAHAH... THE INSANITY!!!
---This is a response to WOW... heh... sorry for the confusion
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What a fascinating introduction to this Message Board this thread has been! I have nothing to offer on the topic under discussion, except this:
The National Arts Center of Canada has made available for download in MP3 format Beethoven's Symphony No. 1 in C Major. I don't know whether it's Classical, Romantic, or just old, but it sounds nice. The link is
http://www.nac-cna.ca/en/multimedia/audio/index.html How are URLs made active here?
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I have to agree, rather grudgingly, with mav. In a conversational context, "classical" music is a useful generalisation - as, indeed, is "popular" music. The latter includes a whole corpus of work that is only "popular" with relatively small groups of people. I have heard punk referred to as "popular" music in the same sort of context as Chopin is referred to as "classical." Both terms are, strictly speaking, incorrect, but within a general context, it does serve a purpose. It doesn't stop it from getting on my ears, though! Come on, musick, lets go into the corner and talk Early Baroque!
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It doesn't stop it from geting on my ears, though!Yes, I know what you mean Rhu - but like the old mantra has it, if it ain't baroque, don't fidget
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You never cease to amaze me with the depths to which you are prepared to plummet, mav. I thought I had better get that in before anyone else protests - as you know, it is the Early Byrd who Ave Verum for breakfast. 
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Dear Mav & Rhuby: You guys are good, but I still miss TEd.
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Amen to that, Bill - I still bow to that Master. Many a good tale he has told, many a good yarn he hass Pun
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Baroque is what you are when you have no Monet. 
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Baroque is what you are when you have no MonetWell you can always go into the Woods to do a little Chopin, unless a Constable comes along, when you will be well advised to rest awhile and listen to the Birt-whistle in the tree. If you keep some 'Ives, you night eventually sell the honey (or you could Munch it yourself!) 
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 36
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 36 |
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