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The USA and Hispanic culture - will AWAD be Spanish in 2051? ‘…modern Hispanic immigration differs from past waves. Unlike the Irish, Italians and Eastern Europeans, Hispanics can come and go easily, thanks to the proximity of lands of origin. Means of social communication, like Univision, allow them to remain in constant contact. This cultural continuity is strengthened and protected by the present emphasis on multiculturalism and bilingual educational programs and by the growing use of Spanish in government and private industry. The interesting question is whether all this constitutes something so unusual that the Hispanic presence could someday make a significant difference in the dominant culture.’http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/19/opinion/19ALBA.html?todaysheadlines
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When I was about ten, there were several ethnic groups in my small Massachusetts town that had their own language schools after the public school hours were over. So far as I know, there are none of them left. The Spanish question is obviously different, mostly because of the large number of Hispanics already here and the constant additional immigration. But I suspect that the advantages of fluency in English will make the next generation of Hispanics less likely to regard Spanish as their preferred language.At present only low level jobs are available to anyone not fluent in English. Hispanics readily qualify for the better jobs, but only by being fluent in English. That is not likely to change.
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What you say may be true now, but I, who speak Spanish as a second language, refuse to quit speaking it because I love the musicality of it. I also like (don't ask me to name them..stern look) the alternative ideas that can easily be expressed in Spanish but not English. It works both ways.
I also had a professor at WMU that claimed that the Hispanic population in the USA would reach majority percentages by 2010-2020. Of my children who grew up with Spanish as their first language, my daughter is still fluent and presently teaches Spanish at the secondary level.
My son is lucky if he can say tortilla correctly, but then he always did succumb easier to peer pressure. My main point is that soon it may be cool to speak Spanish and that is what the young will do, so practice rolling those rrrs(look Ma, no apostrophe!)
consuelo
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I'm sure you are right in wanting to continue your Spanish traditions, consuelo. That's what so interests me about these kind of cultural collisions - in a way, linked to the discussion about language death on another thread.
Be interested to hear from anyone else in the States if you have a particualr perspective on this: does a second language seem a threat to you in your area, do you embrace it, or is it simply not an issue you think will seriously arise, despite all the evidence to the contrary?
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I think that a multilingual US would be great. I'd love to learn (and then be able to use) Spanish, but I like languages and pick them up fairly easily. I imagine that for people who struggle to pick up a language (or have never tried to), the idea that you would be regularly confronted with unintelligible information is scary. Where I live, in Vermont, the impact of the growing presence of Spanish is fairly minimal -- we are almost the whitest state in the nation (not that I'm proud of it). One recent controversy in Burlington (the state's largest city) is the growing number of school children for whom English is not their first language, due to a recently-started Refugee Resettlement program.
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Since I was born and raised (more or less) in Canada, which is officially bilingual, I can say that having more than one official language only enhances life. It makes you aware that your way of doing things, of speaking, of thinking, is not the only way. (Ideally this would lead to more cultural understanding; sadly, it sometimes is twisted into hatred instead.)
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The US will be come more lingual– but I think that English will remain the dominant language– there are so many other groups that even if native spanish speaker out number native english speakers, the english speaker still retain most of the power..
There are some problems with that (i.e., that WASP's still dominate the power structure) but I have learned, and for the most, part integrated their value system.. And there are things about other value systems I don't like...
The Anglo/saxon, judeo/christian value system is more of a meritocracy– many other cultures are "family oriented"– if you are not a member of the family, you are treated as sub human.. So we don't see nepotism as a good– but in many cultures/values systems it is unthinkable for a non family member to "run" the family business.– even if all of the family members are incompetent (or unwilling) to do it themselves.
The A/S, J/C system is also a bit snobbish– but it also values "noblesse obliges".. And we as society are richer for our museums, libraries, park, and other public institutions, that often started as a donation.
In some societies– Park means "private estate" and there are no public cultural institutions or events– only religious ones.. The only public landmark is the religious building–or government ones (and some cases these are one and the same.)
I worry about the changes to US society– and it not just that Spanish speaker /people of hispanic culture are becoming a majority– it is the conflict with all the cultural values, and no longer a WASP majority to teach these a/s, j/c values to all the new comers.
I have worked really hard to express my views with out "dissing" other cultures and value systems.. But if I have failed, forgive me. I don't think others values to be "less or lower" than mine– just different.
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Thanks all, for some very sensitive and interesting responses. Any more takers?
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Lansing is an integrated city, and it has significant populations of recently arrived hispanics and asians, as well as people from eastern Europe (many fled before the fall of the USSR, and were located here by a local church-sponsored refugee program). I don't expect the influx to alter the language beyond recognizable English, because:
(1) the groups speak different languages and compete with each other as well as English
(2) English tends to absorb foreign terms in popular use
(3) the numbers of immigrants is still not high enough to reach critical mass. Less than ten percent of the population, I'd guess.
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Personally, I embrace the growth of Spanish throughout the US, but like consuelo, I've spent a lot of time in Latin America and speak Spanish. The San Francisco area has a huge Hispanic population, and when I go to the neighborhoods that are pretty purely Mexican or otherwise Latino, I love it - I feel like I'm back in Latin America, with all the different cultural, linguistic, and other aspects that come with being there.
I don't feel that English is really likely to lose its dominance in the US, but I definitely notice that speaking Spanish comes in handy more often now than it did 10 years ago. What I don't know is whether this trend will continue, and we'll move more and more towards a bi- (or more) lingual society, where speaking Spanish will become more and more useful as the pockets of Spanish grow and grow, or whether we'll follow the historical model of assimilation, with English staying on top.
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There was a time, about 100 to 150 years ago, when, in the mid-Atlantic States at least, German was the alternate language/culture as much as Spanish is now. There were public schools using German in Baltimore up to WWI. And, of course, being Pa. Dutch, my family which has been in the U.S. at least since the 1st quarter of the 19th century, was bilingual (High German and Pa. Dutch) until my grandfather learned English. But he was also the last who knew German and P.Dutch. It is well-known that the children of immigrants, for the most part, don't want to learn or use their parents' language and folkways -- they want to fit in with their peers and culture. But their children want to know about their grandparents' language and ways, but they don't learn the language as a native language -- it has to be learned like anyone else learns a foreign language. In the case of my family, it took 4 generations (at least) to get out of the old language, but once we did, there was no going back. This is what I think will happen with Hispanics. While there are very many of them, there is not enough of an overwhelming wave that English will not continue to be the dominant language in our country, and one which is the open-sesame to success and prosperity. So I expect that the children and grandchilldren of Latinos will be speaking English, to the chagrin of their elders.
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actually bob, that is not true for many hispanic/latino groups.. In New Mexico, there are 4th and 5th generation families that still speak spanish.. and it is also true in NY. It has impeded many PR's progress in US society that they, and there children, and grandchildren never really learn english.. (Local impression of NY's bi-lingual education program-- the opportunity to be illiterate in two languages.. )
but different groups behave in different ways..
There are some hispanic/latino groups that behave like other immigrants -- all their children change there names from Jose, to Joe, from Consuella to Connie..
in NY there are dominicans, south americans, (colombian, peruvians, and venezuelians are most common), and central americans, and Mexicans, and cubans (more in NJ than NY, but we have a lot.) and spaniards, as well as the PR's. . I work with a number of hispanics.. one from dominican republic, one from spain, 2 from colombia, and 1 from PR-- they, like english speakers from other lands, have different vocabularies.. and different idioms.. and different cultural references, and their own set of prejudice.
Its impossible to simple mass them together and say "hispanic" and think that you can use that word to define them -- Just as a we don't often use european.. we say dutch, or sicilian.. and have different expectation of what each of those europeans would be like, from temperament, to physical appearance, religion, food preferences, to culture..
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"Speak softly, and carry a big stick."
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"Speak softly, and carry a big stick."
As opposed to the more modern "Speak loudly and threaten to beat the tar out of 'em".
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I went back and re-read the whole thread. I cannot understand the relevancy of the " big stick " comments, which might even be misinterpreted by our Hispanic members in an unfortunate way.
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4th and 5th generation families that still speak spanish..
Yes, this difference illuminates what I thought was a key point of significance in the article: that Spanish speakers maintain easy access to their cultural roots, in contrast to many previous waves of immigration.
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Keep in mind that the first wave of emigration had absolutely no interest whatsoever of assimilating with the dominant culture and, to this day, maintain their own language and culture.
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Dr. Bill cannot understand the relevancy of the " big stick " comments.
Expecting "relevancy" from the Dynamic Duo™ may be asking a bit much, Dr. Bill.
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I dunno, Helen. I think I stand by my guesses.
I'm certainly aware that "Latino" or "Hispanic" covers a lot of different nationalities, cultures, etc. In my business, I have had to deal with many Hispanic people from very diverse backgrounds whose only common denominator is the Spanish language, and that only to a certain degree. (Short digression: one of the ways of distinguishing among Spanish speakers ((not all of whom even call the language Español -- a Colombian form I used to have to fill out required that it be done "en Castillano")) is the way they pronounce the letter "ll", ranging from the Castilian eh-yay to the Argentinian "edge-ay" and points in between.) And while Baltimore used never to be much in the way of Hispanic citizens, in the last 5 years or so, there has been a huge influx, so much so that there has been a serious proposal to officially call the area where most of them live "Spanish Town". Saint Patrick's RC Church, originally founded 150 years ago by Irish Catholics, then later a haven for German Catholics, is now the big Latino Church, with more masses in Spanish than English. This is a great blessing, particularly from the culinary standpoint. We now have lots of alternatives to Mexican food, such as Salvadorean, Peruvian, etc. Our church is host to a nascent church community called the "Iglesia de los Tres Santos Reyes" which is a group of Hispanic immigrants too small yet to be able to afford their own building and priest (we have a Spanish-speaking deacon who is vicar to them). They are of several different nationalities and backgrounds, and all but the older people are learning English as fast as they can.
You mention the situation in New Mexico. I don't think that is typical of the U.S. as a whole. New Mexico is not only pretty much rural or small-town, but right across the border from Mexico, so it's easy to set up an enclave which can maintain a separation from the general population and encapsulate itself in its language and folkways.
New York City is, I think, also atypical for the opposite reason. NY is so huge, and has always had such a large immigrant population, that any group, like the Puerto Ricans, can set up its own community and act like they are still in the old country, even if they know better. (The scene and musical number with the Puerto Rican boys and girls in West Side Story comes to mind here.)
So far as I know, Hispanic immigrants aren't going to farming or really small rural communities -- mostly to cities, including some small cities or towns. In that context, they are not so isolated from the rest of American life that they can set up an old-country community, as in New Mexico, nor so isolated by the sheer size of their city, as in NYC. They are, perforce, obliged to be part of the American community and their children will be going to the American schools and associating with the Anglo children and speaking English. If the Anglo community is at least tolerant, better yet welcoming, the parents will be able to associate with them and start getting integrated into the American lifestyle and the English language to some extent, but in any case, the next generation, raised in that milieu, will almost certainly be assimilated and speak English, even if they retain Spanish as an alternate.
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Right after writing the previous post, a thought occurred to me: I was thinking about the assimiation of Hispanics with Anglos and their proximity to Anglos in cities. But in most cities in the U.S., there are large black communities. What about the interaction of Latinos with the black community? I have to confess that I have no idea how that is going. Do you, or anyone else out there? How does or will that impact on language, given that very many blacks have a peculiar dialect of English?
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Bob what i see is that PR's have very different social values than Domincans, and Domincans have different values than Cubans, and so on, and so on..
Some groups work very hard to become assimilated, to learn english, others, learn english, but still tend to live in "ethnic enclaves" and keep social values, and other still, don't learn english, and don't share A/S, J/C social values.. so i find it difficult to see hispanic's as a group, but rather see Dominicans, or Colombians, or Filipino's, or Mexicans.. They have different music, different cultures, different values.. (just as an Irish man and a German might agree on Beer and cabbage, but not on religion (lutherian vs catholic)) and an Irishman and an italian might agree on religion -- but not on garlic or beverage (wine vs. beer)..
Irish, German, Italian-- all european.. But does european does mean, as it sometimes taken to -- Cosmopolitan and cultured or does it just means from europe?
Hispanics often has almost nothing in common -- except Spanish as their mother tongue.. so it's a meaning less term-- and to say that "the Spanish speaking population is growing faster, and will become the majority by 2050"-- is meaningless.. if you said that "Catholic Mexican's would be, not only the largest minority, but actually a plurality by 2050"-- well that would have some significant political and cultural fall out...
The first (red)statement in the above paragraph is meaningless, since it is based on projected growth from a spanish speaking population of today-- but some of that population won't even have spanish speaking children, let alone spanish speaking grandchildren.. and the only vestage of their "hispanic" heritage will be a holiday or two, a dish or two, and a "Hispanic" last name--
The japanese have different names for first generation (not born in japan) and second generation (not born in japan) and don't even consider ethnic japanese of the third generation to be "Japanese" -- the irish have their "lace curtain irish" who's only evidence they are irish is a name like Kennedy or O'Malley.
But some groups, because of geography, and because of certain cultural values (not saying good or bad, just values) tend to remain less assimilated into the melting pot-- even to the point of not learning english... even when that has negitive effects on their earning power.
An other NY times report pointed out that rather than becoming intragrated, neighborhoods in NY are becoming more ethnic-- and i know mine is-- i chose it intentionally because it was so mixed-- when my children where in school, 30 different languages spoken at home (from a school population of c. 300) --now, while the neighborhood in many ways still has diversity, but - 40% of the student in the same school, (school population c. the same) come from a home where one asian language is spoken.. (take your pick-- or if you know Flushing NY-- you know the answer)
I don't mind-- (i got what i wanted for my kids)-- and the "change" is not a negitive one in most aspects-- since housing prices in area mean almost all new comer have to have mega buck$ to move in.
I admit it, i am prejudiced, i like having rich neighbors who drive up the value of my house, and in effect make me richer..and i wouldn't care if they where 1 horned, 1 eyed, purple-people eaters, so long as i got richer(--after all i'm not a purple-person!)
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Dear of troy: do you ever these days hear the old NY lament "There goes the neighborhood!"
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Yes, Dr. Bill-- its being heard in Harlem now-- as all the dot com millionairs go looking for good housing in Manhattan-- all the old neighborhoods on east side and west side have been bought up.. and they are discovering great housing in Harlem--
Harlem, like some other long standing black communities was a ghetto (a segragated community) but it was never a slum-- (though it did have some "slummy" parts.) Now whites are buying up the old brownstones, and renovating them.. and local blacks are compalining-- its changing the nature of the community!
Its funny how what goes around comes around.. Long Island North shore (where i live, in the queens part) was part of the underground railroad-- the local quaker churches were stations, and every two or three miles, there is a long standing black community.. Spinny hill, one community has been "devistated" by rising property values... the families find they can sell there house for so much money-- (and retire in ease else where)-- that the neighborhood is being destroyed... the homes are being ripped down, and office and shopping is going in..
It a double edged sword-- Shouldn't the owner get every penny they can for there old house? but if they do-- the house gets ripped down, and the community is smaller...
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The problem of rising values in homes and their being bought up so they can be torn down is not confined to urban areas. Farmland is disappearing in so many places it will be a wonder if there is any left by 2050. It is so difficult to make a living consistently at farming that developers don't have a lot of trouble most of the time buying up farms to build housing developments. This, of course, not only ruins the landscape but results in problems with drainage and runoff, more roads having to be built, along with more schools, etc. We have a program here in Maryland whereby a farm owner can place his property in a sort of trust which allows him to continue to occupy and farm it for his lifetime, but it can't thereafter be sold; it remains green space. He gets tax breaks and other incentives to allow him to get by financially even in case of drought, crop failure, and the other normal perils of farming. Unfortunately, rarely taken advantage of.
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farming
Are Kansas and Nebraska this way as well? The last time I saw any pictures of them they were still pretty flat and farmy. And from personal experience I know that north-western Ohio is still almost entirely farm land.
I think farming is becoming more of a commercial business now than a personal endeavor. Fewer people want to be farmers, but there are also new technologies that make it possible for one person or a computerized machine to farm a huge area in much less time than previous eras. This makes it possible for companies to run farms instead of a single person devoting his life to it. America's farms produce enough to feed the world and then some, so I don't think we have to worry too much about a losing food, just losing the nice countrysides and persona of the farmer.
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One reason a lot of dairy farms are no longer family run is the fact that vacations are impossible. A joke among dairymen is the the only difference between being in jail and on a dairy farm is that in jail you don't have to milk cows.
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I was born in Lowell, Mass, and received my early newspaper training there.
Lowell, one of the most famous Mill Towns (Now a National Park and well worth a visit) was home to a variety of ethnicities. Yankee, Irish, French, Germans and up through the 1960s, home to the largest community of Greeks in the nation. There were also smaller communities of other ethnicities.
All mixed and merged -- and yet retained their individualistic national languages. Now, there is an influx of Vietnamese and Cambodian refugees struggling to find a place in the city's society, *and learning English apace.
A friend of mine has a brother who is a very highly placed exec in a multi-national in Sweden. As I recall, he said that Sweden used to require all to learn the language in order to live and work there. Then a sea change occurred and the requirement was changed. He said the change was not good. "Disasterous" I think was his word. He also said "In this case, (learning the language) America got it right."
Anyone from Sweden on the Board who can comment on this and correct or amplify my recollection?
In years past, the US government promoted assimilation by forbidding use of other languages. Witness the proscription on speaking in a Native American or Hawaiian or Native Alaskan language. Today there is a resurgence in those languages ... in Hawaii Punana Leo is an example where youngsters (ages 4 to 12) learn Hawaiian and teachers have found those same children do better in English Language skills than the children who speak just English.
You can go to any country live there for a lifetime, learn the language, customs, and still be a foreigner ... here you can be an American regardless of where you were born.
Have no unalterable opinion except to say that English/American has bound us together all these years.
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In reply to:
losing the nice countrysides and persona of the farmer
I suppose, Jazz, that like me you are a city boy and haven't met a great many farmers. I dare say that, like other people, there are farmers and there are farmers. But when it comes to the ones who are in farming as a business, I have to agree with H.L. Mencken that they are among the most execrable people in the world, since they are forever whining and complaining. If it's too dry the farmers are crying about drought, and if it's too wet they whine about too damp. The weather is never right for farmers and you get sick and tired of hearing them complain.
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It used to be that to be a farmer all you needed was a strong back. But today's farmers have to be good business men, and able to evaluate a lot of scientific publications and complicated legislation. Then comes the hard work.
I don't think farmers complain any more than other businessmen.
P.S. As an example of the crap farmers have to put up with from idiotic politicians, early in WWII, farmers had to get permission to slaughter steers. One farmer applied to slaughter a hundred steers. He got back a letter giving him permission to slaughter fifty, but requiring him "to keep fifty for breeding purposes." Need I explain the risibility of that?
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We used to have cattle, and they got away quite a bit (not as much as the sheep we had one year, though.) Being about one and a half years old, I thought it was fun, the one time I remember them getting away, but my parents didn't like it. The cattle were better than the sheep in more than one way: the cattle always went up the hill on the road, but the sheep went anywhere they wanted when they excaped. So I'd say that if cow farming caused complaints, all farmers can complain. Anyway, if it rains too much, that's just as bad.
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Yes Bob, i saw a PBS special on Lancaster county (PA) -- which has some of the richest best farm land in the world-- and this farm land is being turned into suburban housing .. and then the new residents complain about the farms- the cow manure smells, the tractors are two slow (when they travel on by roads) They complain about the dust, and the trucks, etc. But amish farms find when they relocate to Iowa, they need 2 to 3 times the acrage to have the same yield they did in Lancaster. --
I not sure that farmers complain any more than anyone one else.. and i sometimes think casino gambling might be a safer bet-- at least you know the house take--with mother nature.. there is no limit to the risk.. and should every one else fail, and you succeed in bringing in a crop-- the city folks get up in arms about "windfall profits" and accuse the farmerss of being unreasonable to charge what the market will bear..
the more things change, the more they remain the same...
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”40 percent of Californians spoke a language other than English at home…./……/….Reflecting this new diversity, 18 percent of all residents who were at least 5 years old spoke a language other than English at home, up 4 percent from 1990. Of those people, 60 percent spoke Spanish, and 43 percent reported that they did not speak English "very well…./……/…..the populations of 27 states are now at least 5 percent foreign-born, compared with 14 states in 1980. States with large populations of new immigrants tended to ride the economic upswing. In a dozen states, including Nevada, more than half the population was born in other states or overseas…."http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/06/national/06CENS.html?todaysheadlinesDoes any of this represent interesting trends?
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>more than half the population was born in other states or overseas….
how to make a meaningless point (or a point meaningless)
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Does any of this represent interesting trends?i think the trend is as wonderful as it is essential. unless things have changed since i was in high school (over a decade ago), US'n students are required to take only 2 years of foreign language, and short of private schools (my own children are required to begin a 5 year course of latin in the fifth grade, but this is certainly not the case in public schools), there is absolutely *no opportunity for the acquisition of a foreign language at the elementary school level, when students' facility for reception and retaining of said knowledge is arguably higher than at older ages. one would think that the powers that be in USn education would want to more closely tailor the language education standards to the [rapidly] changing demographics. seems it's time that we wake up and smell the cat food... i'm not sure i understand what it is that folks are skeered of; the kids in europe do just fine with their language requirements at an early age. unless perhaps the problem is that we simply don't have the teachers? god forbid we have to model ourselves after many of the asian countries, and hire *foreigners* to teach our kids; we might unwittingly produce a whole generation of useful citizens  . FWIW, though i speak only kitchen spanish, and have forgotten most of the french i learned, my kids are used to my esperanto and respond in kind (they, however, have the advantage of growing up with spanish-speaking nannies).
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