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There was a time, about 100 to 150 years ago, when, in the mid-Atlantic States at least, German was the alternate language/culture as much as Spanish is now. There were public schools using German in Baltimore up to WWI. And, of course, being Pa. Dutch, my family which has been in the U.S. at least since the 1st quarter of the 19th century, was bilingual (High German and Pa. Dutch) until my grandfather learned English. But he was also the last who knew German and P.Dutch. It is well-known that the children of immigrants, for the most part, don't want to learn or use their parents' language and folkways -- they want to fit in with their peers and culture. But their children want to know about their grandparents' language and ways, but they don't learn the language as a native language -- it has to be learned like anyone else learns a foreign language. In the case of my family, it took 4 generations (at least) to get out of the old language, but once we did, there was no going back. This is what I think will happen with Hispanics. While there are very many of them, there is not enough of an overwhelming wave that English will not continue to be the dominant language in our country, and one which is the open-sesame to success and prosperity. So I expect that the children and grandchilldren of Latinos will be speaking English, to the chagrin of their elders.
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actually bob, that is not true for many hispanic/latino groups.. In New Mexico, there are 4th and 5th generation families that still speak spanish.. and it is also true in NY. It has impeded many PR's progress in US society that they, and there children, and grandchildren never really learn english.. (Local impression of NY's bi-lingual education program-- the opportunity to be illiterate in two languages.. )
but different groups behave in different ways..
There are some hispanic/latino groups that behave like other immigrants -- all their children change there names from Jose, to Joe, from Consuella to Connie..
in NY there are dominicans, south americans, (colombian, peruvians, and venezuelians are most common), and central americans, and Mexicans, and cubans (more in NJ than NY, but we have a lot.) and spaniards, as well as the PR's. . I work with a number of hispanics.. one from dominican republic, one from spain, 2 from colombia, and 1 from PR-- they, like english speakers from other lands, have different vocabularies.. and different idioms.. and different cultural references, and their own set of prejudice.
Its impossible to simple mass them together and say "hispanic" and think that you can use that word to define them -- Just as a we don't often use european.. we say dutch, or sicilian.. and have different expectation of what each of those europeans would be like, from temperament, to physical appearance, religion, food preferences, to culture..
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"Speak softly, and carry a big stick."
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"Speak softly, and carry a big stick."
As opposed to the more modern "Speak loudly and threaten to beat the tar out of 'em".
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I went back and re-read the whole thread. I cannot understand the relevancy of the " big stick " comments, which might even be misinterpreted by our Hispanic members in an unfortunate way.
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4th and 5th generation families that still speak spanish..
Yes, this difference illuminates what I thought was a key point of significance in the article: that Spanish speakers maintain easy access to their cultural roots, in contrast to many previous waves of immigration.
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Keep in mind that the first wave of emigration had absolutely no interest whatsoever of assimilating with the dominant culture and, to this day, maintain their own language and culture.
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Dr. Bill cannot understand the relevancy of the " big stick " comments.
Expecting "relevancy" from the Dynamic Duo™ may be asking a bit much, Dr. Bill.
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I dunno, Helen. I think I stand by my guesses.
I'm certainly aware that "Latino" or "Hispanic" covers a lot of different nationalities, cultures, etc. In my business, I have had to deal with many Hispanic people from very diverse backgrounds whose only common denominator is the Spanish language, and that only to a certain degree. (Short digression: one of the ways of distinguishing among Spanish speakers ((not all of whom even call the language Español -- a Colombian form I used to have to fill out required that it be done "en Castillano")) is the way they pronounce the letter "ll", ranging from the Castilian eh-yay to the Argentinian "edge-ay" and points in between.) And while Baltimore used never to be much in the way of Hispanic citizens, in the last 5 years or so, there has been a huge influx, so much so that there has been a serious proposal to officially call the area where most of them live "Spanish Town". Saint Patrick's RC Church, originally founded 150 years ago by Irish Catholics, then later a haven for German Catholics, is now the big Latino Church, with more masses in Spanish than English. This is a great blessing, particularly from the culinary standpoint. We now have lots of alternatives to Mexican food, such as Salvadorean, Peruvian, etc. Our church is host to a nascent church community called the "Iglesia de los Tres Santos Reyes" which is a group of Hispanic immigrants too small yet to be able to afford their own building and priest (we have a Spanish-speaking deacon who is vicar to them). They are of several different nationalities and backgrounds, and all but the older people are learning English as fast as they can.
You mention the situation in New Mexico. I don't think that is typical of the U.S. as a whole. New Mexico is not only pretty much rural or small-town, but right across the border from Mexico, so it's easy to set up an enclave which can maintain a separation from the general population and encapsulate itself in its language and folkways.
New York City is, I think, also atypical for the opposite reason. NY is so huge, and has always had such a large immigrant population, that any group, like the Puerto Ricans, can set up its own community and act like they are still in the old country, even if they know better. (The scene and musical number with the Puerto Rican boys and girls in West Side Story comes to mind here.)
So far as I know, Hispanic immigrants aren't going to farming or really small rural communities -- mostly to cities, including some small cities or towns. In that context, they are not so isolated from the rest of American life that they can set up an old-country community, as in New Mexico, nor so isolated by the sheer size of their city, as in NYC. They are, perforce, obliged to be part of the American community and their children will be going to the American schools and associating with the Anglo children and speaking English. If the Anglo community is at least tolerant, better yet welcoming, the parents will be able to associate with them and start getting integrated into the American lifestyle and the English language to some extent, but in any case, the next generation, raised in that milieu, will almost certainly be assimilated and speak English, even if they retain Spanish as an alternate.
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Right after writing the previous post, a thought occurred to me: I was thinking about the assimiation of Hispanics with Anglos and their proximity to Anglos in cities. But in most cities in the U.S., there are large black communities. What about the interaction of Latinos with the black community? I have to confess that I have no idea how that is going. Do you, or anyone else out there? How does or will that impact on language, given that very many blacks have a peculiar dialect of English?
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