|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508
addict
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508 |
I want to be a better human being than those murderers
Exactly, juanmaria! As I listened to the radio reports of the execution this morning, the dispassionate, matter-of-fact descriptions of the mechanism of death by lethal injection, something in me said, This just is not right! We should not be doing this. It was truly an epiphany.
I do understand the desire to exact the ultimate price, and feel that some monsters do indeed "deserve" to die. But I feel more strongly that we should not participate in the killing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Having glimpsed of the "proceedings" today I feel compelled to offer a few words. I have wavered on the death penalty, back and forth. In cases, for instance, of serial killers, why jeopardize the life of one more innocent victim or child to give these degenerates "one more chance" at parole? On the other hand, if ONE innocent person can slip though the justice system to their death (and this is now proven in multiples) then we have become murderers, and it has to be abolished, period.
But my main question is this ...How is death a punishment? Thousands of innocent children die in the world every day? Are they being "punished"? So, to my mind, death is not really a punishment. No, far better to put someone like McVeigh into the general (not solitary) prison population where he'd be gang-raped and beaten mercilessly every other day as a baby-killer...until somebody finally bashes his brains in like Jeffrey Dahmer. Let justice work itself out. THAT is a punishment. Today he went to sleep and made us and the Federal Government into killers too...so, in a way, he got his wish. Too bad. Now, I think killing is killing...nobody wins in the equation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
WO'N,
Thank you for your articulate expression of an issue I've been grappling with for a long time -- and couldn't find the words to express how I feel. Something inside me says the only justification for capital punishment is that it costs us taxpayers less.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Jazz, your comments address a large issue, and one which lots of people are confused about.
Until quite recently, in the large picture of human history, there was absolutely no conflict between religion and capital punishment, since crime was seen as an affront to the gods as well as the state and/or its citizens. The Bible enjoins punishment by death, and no easy death, to those who commit certain grave crimes, and this was carried through for some 3000 years. I have a mid-19th century prayer book which contains a form for the visitation of prisoners, which has a most interesting harangue to be delivered to a prisoner awaiting execution. No one at the time saw anything inappropriate in a priest, or the Church, colluding, as it were, in the carrying out of the demands of justice. Until just a couple generations ago, only a relatively few advanced thinkers thought that there was anything wrong with punishing with death the worst crimes on the books. Indeed, it was thought to be advanced thinking when governments and rulers stopped executing people by breaking on the wheel, burning at the stake, hanging drawing and quartering, etc. Remember that the guillotine was invented as an instrument of merciful death because hangings were so often botched.
Certainly there are practical problems with the death penalty and I agree that it should not be applied where there is any doubt at all as to the guilt of the criminal. But, in the relatively few cases where there is absolutely no doubt, or the criminal has made a free and totally uncoerced confession, I think it is not only appropriate but necessary for the ends of justice. Part of the concept of justice is equitable treatment and restoring balances. Where possible, the taking of an innocent life by a criminal calls for the taking of his. I reject with horror the modern notion that the death sentence is called for in order for the victims' families to have "closure". This is only pandering to the basest of human emotions and the desire for vengeance. Far better for people, in the long run, and necessary for their spiritual health, that they get over their loss and become able to live with it, rather than letting it eat away at them for the ten to twenty years it usually takes in the US to execute a criminal, or live with it forever if the criminal is not executed. In the case of McVeigh, there was no real doubt of his guilt, and he himself did not deny that he was guilty, and his lawyers certainly gave every indication that they knew he was guilty. My only criticism of how he was dispatched is that he should not have been allowed access to the media and the whole thing should have beeen downplayed as far as anything can be in these media-dominated times.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
I want to be a better human being than those murderers
My sentiments exactly, juanmaria. I'm sure many of you have seen the bumper sticker slogan "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" That makes the point quite clearly, I think. Add to that the possibilities for error in the judicial process, and the known fact that such mistakes are made, and I feel the death penalty is absolutely unconscionable.
As to AnnaS's point that it is cheaper for the taxpayers - although I don't have figures handy to back this up, I have read on a number of occasions that, due to the numerous appeals and delays inherent in a capital case (which ideally serve to ensure that the wrong person is not killed by the state), the death penalty ends up being more expensive to the taxpayer than life in prison.
There was a piece in the New Yorker recently about the death penalty, which described it as an issue where politicians who wish to appear hard on crime choose to support it, even when the majority of their constituents don't. Once again, sound-bite politics and the media's (and our own) short attention span present us with an outcome that many, even most, would wish were differerent.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
Part of the concept of justice is equitable treatment and restoring balances. Where possible, the taking of an innocent life by a criminal calls for the taking of his. I reject with horror the modern notion that the death sentence is called for in order for the victims' families to have "closure". This is only pandering to the basest of human emotions and the desire for vengeance.
I agree with this sense of the concept of justice - but I feel strongly that life with parole takes away the life of the criminal (as well as keeping him out of society), and thus provides justice. Hammurabi's Code called for "an eye for an eye", etc., but I think we can implement the idea of a life for a life without killing the killer - we can take away his chance to live a life in society.
As to your point about "closure" for victims' families - I have never been even remotely involved in a situation where this was an issue, so I have a hard time saying how I would feel in the reality of it, but I completely, absolutely agree with you. This kind of thinking, which seems to be more and more eagerly represented by the media, is sick and twisted.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
bob-- following up on your reply to Jazz-- Human society is undergoing a change in its ideas on how to deal with people who commit capital crimes.. It was in Quaker Pennsylvania (or was it a quaker community in Maryland?) that first came up with penitentiaries-- and solitary confinment-- the thought being that a criminal should contempate in solitude and repent for his (her) evil ways.. most non-quaker went "mad"-- and the quakers soon reformed -- and sentenced criminals to "reformatories" and taught them crafts or work skills..
We as people still haven't decided whether we want to punish crimials or reform them-- to make them serve time-- or to also repent their crimes... And our attempt to deal with criminals are not very well thought out.. Our (US) constitution prohibits "cruel and unusual" punishments-- but we don't quite agree on what is cruel and unusual... Chain gangs are still legal-- (as is the death penalty) and we take issue with china for using "prison labor" to make export goods-- but a front page article in NYTImes late last week praised US prisons setting up "industries" -- (the idea to teach inmates work skills, so the when they left prison they would also be "reformed" and have job skills..)
There are no easy answers.. It's all well and good to think pure thoughts-- and i'd like to think someone who has been convicted, and has servered time should be able to re-enter society-- but i'll be honest--I don't want a felon for a neighbor or a work mate. nor do i want them teaching in schools, or doing lots of other things (serving as corporate officers-- handling money..)
I have work and developed friendships with former junkies-- and truly believe drugs (and drug use) should be de-criminalized-- Drug use is a problem- but i don't think its a crime.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
I’m aware of the whole “cruel and unusual punishment” thing, but I’m sure there was a building being demolished somewhere in the area where they could have “accidentally” left McVeigh tied up in the basement. Just saying. I mean, those needles are expensive, and this way they can save the taxpayers a few bucks.
disclaimer # 1 - shamelessly stolen from I dare not say where
disclaimer # 2 - shamelessly returning to original question: enough already!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Point of information: an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth may be in the Code of Hammurabi, but more relevantly for us it's in the Bible, in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy.
Having said that, I am against the death penalty. Firstly, too many mistakes are made. Secondly, I'm not convinced that it has much if any deterrent effect. Europe's murder rate is much lower than the US's but the last execution in Europe was sometime in the 70s. (I know there are factors behind the difference in murder rates, but let's leave them for another discussion, shall we?*).
*Linguistic note: how did the question tag from let's get to be shall we?
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,315
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
247
guests, and
2
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
