|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
I've noted that there is a range of attitudes to the use of swearing in different countries. If there were a scale, it may be the case that the average (reasonably well-educated) young/middle aged American at the less tolerant end and a similar person in Britain or Ireland at the more tolerant end of the scale.
Here, what seems to be more important is the way words are used, not the words themselves.
Another factor is the situation in which the word is used. In school, in front of children or in a place of work which is open to the public (a bank or a hospital clinic) the language is rather different to that used in a closed, adult-only environment, especially in a workplace where people are expected to be creative or undertake tasks which are difficult and personally demanding.
The word usage, which might be expected on a building site, would not surprise many people but would they expect to find some of the same words in an operating theatre (where the only member of the public is fast asleep)?
It seems that the barriers have broken down to a certain extent - the same words are spoken by lords and layabouts - the key difference is how they are said, and the underlying meaning the person is trying to express.
An example is the opening scene of "Four Weddings and a Funeral" - two people wake up and express irritation at potentially being late for a wedding. The same words, used in a modern gangster movie (almost any) - are used in a much more threatening way. Given that "Four Weddings and a Funeral" was a very popular love story reaching a wide audience is it true that we have moved away from focussing on words, which should be excluded, and focussing on the wider implications of what people are saying?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Well, Jo,
I will offer my opinion, but ask you to keep in mind that I
am conservative, and old-fashioned at least in re: good
manners. To me, certain words are not ever used by a genteel person, unless he or she is under provocation.
There is a huge amount of oh-so-casual cursing, at least in
the movies here. (Ex. The Blair Witch Project--seemed like
50% of the "dialogue" was either f--- or s---.) I hear the
f-word quite often, even at elementary schools. But to me,
using ugly words in everyday talking is "just not done".
(I can and do curse rather freely when provoked, however!
I'd be in BIG trouble if the other drivers knew what I call them sometimes!) But(t) I think I am quite the minority--
I can't even use the (sort of) word at the beginning of this sentence, but I hear it used all the time by people from all walks of life.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
Just the other night we viewed a video called "Mystery, Alaska" (a nice little movie about true grit and determination and manly competition) of which the story isn't relevant but the language was very blue, not atypical of Hollywood these days. There was one scene where a very young child (pre-schooler) says "f*** me" and his parents chortle happily as if to say "isn't that cute". This got me to thinking about the way profanity has changed in its general acceptability. I am of an age such that I never ever heard my parents swear, unless for a special occasion (e.g., hitting thumb with hammer). Things changed with the onset of the Vietnam War (a lot of things did) -- it was the end of innocence for the baby-boomer generation. Profanity became common in moments of anger, frustration and passion (we saw it all the time in movies). Now, with this latest generation, it has gone another step beyond; it has become almost a part of everyday (informal) speech. We hear it every night on the tube (I'm sure we'll hear the last couple of exceptions any Monday night now on "WWF RAW is WAR -- as a matter of fact I understand the f-word snuck past the bleeper last night). But our parents and, to a lesser extent, my generation continue to react very negatively to profanity, because to us it still represents passionate emotions which we feel should remain private. So it probably is a lot bigger issue here in the US; it's a 'generational thing'.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460 |
I have almost given up going to contemporary English language movies, even though I am known as a 'film buff', because I spend so much time and effort wincing at the language used.
At least in subtitled films you can quickly skim the subtitle and the effect is lessened.
Ah! for the days when cinema was silent and you only had inappropriate music to contend with -- and that discussion continues with my friends in the alt.movies.silent newsgroup.
And, off thread, has anybody else noticed that the 'quality' of most films deteriorates as the amount of clothing they're wearing lessens.
Jackie, I'll have to join you and the other conservatives on this issue.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
>>And, off thread, has anybody else noticed that the 'quality' of most films deteriorates as the amount of clothing they're wearing lessens.<<
Yup!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679 |
A lot of good points being made here and it is clearly what Jo (jmh) had in mind to start with - to capture the feelings of the noticeboard members towards expletives.
However, it is interesting that everyone has used an example from the film industry to emphasise their point(s). Nobody has mentioned 'profanity' in the printed media or, more importantly, in books.
True, the film industry does go overboard sometimes in their use of bad language, violence and nudity. I wouldn't wholly agree with the very general comment made that the quality of film declines when clothing is removed - after all, the most powerful scene (to me, anyway) in Schindler's List was the scene in Auschwitz when the women had to strip and were herded into the 'shower'. But I get your point. The film industry comes in many guises and 'Hollywood' ply their trade with big money-spinners full of dumbed-down dialogue, lots of action and spectacle and the token sex scenes. many other film-makers try to capture the real world and, in doing so, have to include real language which, like it or not, is part of the real world. Changing attitudes over the past thirty years have brougt us from the sanitised john Wayne WWII movies to realistic 'blood and guts' epics like Saving Private Ryan and The thin red line both of which dealt with the reality of frontline war and not what happened on the peripheries. Many recent Vietnam films were the inspiration for these two films and, doubtless, we can expect a resurgence in the War film over the nextfew years. But I digress...
The fact is that real soldiers used real bad language no matter how they spoke at home and people have to be depicted on screen as they really are otherwise film loses meaning and context. If it turns your stomach then may I suggest literary adaptations?
It is not uncommon in literary circles to use blue language and many respected (and respectable) writers have used it quite comonly. Notable are the Nobel writers from Ireland.
James Joyce (well, he didn't win the Nobel prize - but he should have) is reckoned by soem to be the greatest writer of this century. Maybe, but he is widely known to have cussed in everyday parlance.
W.B. Yeat's wasn't coy with his use of the odd bit of f***ing in public life - even when he was an Irish senator.
The reknowned poet - Seamus Heaney (who I have had the pleasure to have met) used the 'f' word many times in his poetry which he read to an audience of visiting tourists in Dublen recently. Not many were shocked.
Language is all context. Street urchins or drunkards mouthing off obscenities are foul and crude but educated people (at least inmy neck of the woods) are not chastised for swearing in public because the 'f' word is used for emphasis in conversation and the 's' word is used to downgrade something or to show disapproval. I never thought my parents (or grandparents) swore because I realise now that they wanted us to be raised clean-mouthed. Now I find they swear(swore) more than I could ever hope to. I know that it shocks some of you to hear swearing and that you highly disapprove but they are only words. The next generation will be immune to this generations' swear-words as we are to the past generations'.
After all, in the early 1900's such words as 'bloody' and 'goddamn' were enough to get books banned and the authors censured.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
You can add one of our last Poet Laureate’s most famous poems - his subject - parenting.
I think its important to separate the way the words are use from the words themselves.
Current abuse by young people has moved away from specific words. Apparently they say "your mother ..." insert "wears short skirts/has a toyboy/.....". Much more hurtful than a rather meaningless *-off.
On the subject of films. The number of clothes don't bother me too much (although, agreed, there is a lot of rubbish around) - I tend to stay away from gratuitous violence - I can live without knives and guns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 163
member
|
|
member
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 163 |
Although rap and hip-hop music is relatively old, only lately we are hearing it sang, and broadcasted, in Spanish.
Two years ago lots of people listened to Fugees’ ‘The Score’ and, since almost anybody understood a word, you could go with your family in your car listening a complete catalog of cussing. I understood quite a few ones but it made me laugh. When you learn those words as an adult they lack almost all their strength.
But, as I told before, we are now hearing rap songs in Spanish and, believe me, I have had to turn off the radio in a hurry, blushed as a ‘Rubrick’ a few times.
We Spaniards are extreme. We can go from burning or expelling heathens to be world’s most tolerant country.
Juan Maria.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 37
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 37 |
Interesting turn this conversation is taking.
Rubrick, I like your comments about UK literary use of expletives.
I'm surprised Philip Davis hasn't jumped in here, so I'll run with it. I think acceptability of swearing has a strong class/gender element. I have a background in the emergency services, which have historically been male dominated and working class. Fluent swearing by both genders is usually fairly acceptable in everyday conversation when not dealing with the public. Superficially casting my mind around to other male dominated "trades" the heuristic works. Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
Yesterday I re-read in a history book the account of the US warship-building effort after Pearl Harbor. This led me to recall the two books by Chester Himes which I had read, e.g. "If he hollers let him go". Himes worked in a shipyard at that time (He also spent time in prison). His language graphically conveys the atmosphere. I don't think the books were ever censored? Or do you know otherwise?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679 |
> Yesterday I re-read in a history book the account of the US warship-building effort after Pearl Harbor. This led me to
recall the two books by Chester Himes which I had read, e.g. "If he hollers let him go". Himes worked in a shipyard at
that time (He also spent time in prison). His language graphically conveys the atmosphere. I don't think the books were
ever censored? Or do you know otherwise?
I can't honestly say wsieber, cos I've never heard of him but the censorship laws in Britain and Ireland are (were) extremely strict right up until the late '70s. Lady Chatterly's Lover was banned until the late '60s.
Roddy Doyle's Barrytown trilogy is full of colloquial Dublinese (as anyone who has seen The Commitments or The Snapper will attest) and because of their critical acclaim the whole language issue has been dropped when it comes to the printed word. It is still taboo to swear or curse on TV or radio. The changing attitudes in this country alone over the past twenty years have been astonishing to say the least.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 112
member
|
|
member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 112 |
>>It is still taboo to swear or curse on TV or radio. The changing attitudes in this country alone over the past twenty years have been astonishing to say the least.<<
I have noticed a relaxation of those attitudes here in New Zealand over the past two years - radio talk shows seem to be the place where expletives are heard fairly regularly, and there seems to be little censorship by the radio station.
Perhaps this has something to do with the much-vaunted freedom of speech in this country.
In South Africa, "live" radio is always controlled by a device that puts a three-second delay on an incoming telephone call, and a technician has a "beep" button to censor whatever is considered unacceptable. That seems not to happen here, and I have heard callers swearing freely.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
Its the same here. I haven't heard a bleep for a long time.
With television there is a 9pm watershed which means that the language should be suitable for a family audience before that time. There has never been a similar rule for radio, so it tends to be down to the individual programme.
They ran a series of "alternative" comedy radio shows at around six pm. Whilst the material from the same comic at 11pm would include more adult material, it didn't seem particularly censored for language.
It used to be considered to be funny to include a long string of f-words in a comedian's act, because it was meant to be challenging. Wasn't Lenny Bruce an exponent of that? These days, in the main, people have got bored with it and have, in general moved on to finding other things funny. Comedy used to be happily racist and sexist, the f-words just replaced all those "mother-in-law" jokes that no-one would dare tell any more. I think we've absorbed most of that now and want to move on.
There is a much greater commitment to realism now, rather than hiding behind the idea that everything is "nice". If the programme is about prisons or dockyards it uses the language that is found there without making a judgement.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Do I find the use of expletives in films, books, etc. irritating? Sometimes. The purpose of expletives, surely, is to show extreme emotion. I have been known to turn the air the deepest shade of blue imaginable when I hit my head again on the hanging lamp my landlord is so fond of just outside my door. Unfortunately in films the words often seem to be used not to express emotion but to arouse it. If the acting is convincing I don't really notice the expletives; if it isn't they're just irritating. Similarly with unclothed scenes, if they are acted well, yes, fine. If not, which is usually the case, I just think, "Do get on with it and let's get back to the story."
Another point, in books v. films. There are a lot more words in books and so expletives are, I think, a lot less obtrusive. Also imagining the scene, one doesn't have to worry about acting ability...
Another b***** lunch time taken up with AWAD!
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
>>Unfortunately in films the words often seem to be used not to express emotion but to arouse it. If the acting is convincing I don't really notice the expletives; if it isn't they're just irritating. Similarly with unclothed scenes, if they are acted well, yes, fine. If not, which is usually the case, I just think, "Do get on with it and let's get back to the story."<<
Bingley, this is exactly what I think! I presume the
poorly-acted sex scenes are intended to shock or titillate,
but oh, they just get it the way!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
And have you noticed what an inordinate time women (and it usually is women) in films seem to spend wandering around in their underwear for no readily apparent reason? Were they interrupted as they were getting dressed or undressed? Surely if so, any normal person would either finish what they were doing or slip on a dressing gown or something instead of then proceeding to cook breakfast or whatever. I mean, you could get some nasty burns!! If there's a comprehensible reason, no problem, but there so very rarely is.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>I mean, you could get some nasty burns!!
I was thinking of popping round to cook you breakfast - can you mail me your address. I'll slip into something comfortable to test your theory - bacon and eggs?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Edinburgh to Jakarta is rather a long way to pop, don't you think? But if you do decide to come, bring your own bacon, it's almost impossible to get decent rashers here.
Of course, it is on the way if you're going to Australia.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460 |
Hey, guys and gals (if I may call you that -- you partygoers you!).
This wasn't planned as a 'come-as-you-are' party and, anyway, it's rather cool in Hobart this time of year with snow on the mountain. So you will at least all bring thermal underwear and heavy dressing-gowns, won't you. That's our brand of titillation!
… and the 'slab' was chocolate not beer (I may be a teetotaller but not a party-pooper!).
More to come (as they say …)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Gosh, where to start? Jo--I am shocked!!  bingley--how awful for you. Bacon is one of life's best things! Kind of you to remind us of the party at paulb's! paulb--the australia-speak website gave beer as the meaning of slab. My apologies for misusing the term. And now, to complete the circuit: here, we use the phrase "a slab of bacon"!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>Jo--I am shocked!!
Glad to see you are all awake!
I was looking at lastminute.com they were offering bookings made in the last minute of each hour in pennies not pounds so a quick trip to Oz via Jakarta sounds very tempting. I'll bring Haggis.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
>>. I'll bring Haggis. <<
Oh, Jo--ick, ick, I'm going to be sick! How in the world
did anybody EVER think to do something like that?? But
then again, we have souse.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
>>And have you noticed what an inordinate time women (and it usually is women) in films seem to spend wandering around in their underwear for no readily apparent reason?<<
Bingley, I can't help but wonder: if the film industry had
a history of having mostly female producers and
directors, whether it would be primarily males on-screen
in their underwear.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
Jackie I thought you were a woman of some sophistication! I have been responsible for converting many people to the joys of haggis http://www.electricscotland.com/haggis/haggis1.htmlFor those unable to catch the real thing we also have vegetarian haggis (ideal for the feint hearted). The main thing is to get a very good quality haggis. Once you have , you can settle down with a wee dram and recite the pome: http://www.electricscotland.com/haggis/toahaggi.htmlSorry that this is off the main topic but soem things just have to be nipped in the bud!!!:-)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679 |
> I can't help but wonder: if the film industry had
a history of having mostly female producers and
directors, whether it would be primarily males on-screen
in their underwear.
Jane Campion wrote, directed and produced The Piano starring Holly Hunter and Harvey Keitel. Both of the stars wear considerably less than underwear in it but would you really believe that the beauty of this film is diminished by nudity?
In one scene Keitel, who is infatuated with Hunter buys her piano but cannot play himself, walks around the piano takes off his nightgown and dusts the surface. I asked a lot of my female friends if they thought this was obscene. They all replied to the contrary. In a closing scene they both engage in sex but we see it through the eyes of her jilted husband (played by Sam Neill) who can only glimpse the couple through holes in Keitel's wooden shack walls.
Voyeurism? I don't think so and your mind is constantly distracted away from the couple with the suspense of what may happen next. This is a film that uses nudity and love-making to a high-level and doesn't cheapen it. The metaphors and imagery in the film are rich and, if you are one to instantly switch off when nudity is displayed on celluloid, you will have missed a beautiful and very satisfying film. If only there were more like it.
This is a film which clearly does not exploit either men or women (but does point out the sexual inequalities of the late Victorian period and includes some wonderfully funny matriarchal characters) and uses sex and nudity in an acceptable and cultured way. Clearly there is a lot to be said for your point, Jackie. The woman's viewpoint in film-making can make a difference to its quality. I'm certainly getting a bit sick of the constant thread of films which are being made for 'male' audiences by the male-dominated industry. I'm an ardent film-goer but I find myself moving closer and closer towards the fringe of film-making of the 'Sundance', Cannes, Berlin variety due to the growing crassness of the 'Hollywood' style.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460 |
Jackie: no need to apologise -- the term 'slab' is used for both beer and chocolate, and also for concrete (which nobody has mentioned yet, probably because it's not digestible!) -- and now also bacon!
We should be able to link up soon with the long-running 'bread rolls' thread!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>We should be able to link up soon with the long-running 'bread rolls' thread!
...with 'buns' leaning in our direction?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I don't think my faint heart can take much more of this thread: now, of ALL members, The Supreme Universal Word Master is bordering on the obscene !?! I NEVER would have
thought that of you, Tsuwm.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>bordering on the obscene that's some wide border! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
>>-- the term 'slab' is used for both beer and chocolate, and also for concrete (which nobody has mentioned yet, probably because it's not digestible!) -- and now also bacon!
We should be able to link up soon with the long-running 'bread rolls' thread!<<
Well, paulb--so far at your party, we're having haggis, bacon, and souse, innumerable kinds of bread, washed down
with beer, and with chocolate for dessert. Sounds okay
so far, except I don't like beer--got any iced tea? (Yes, I
drink it in winter.)
We use the phrase slab of concrete here, too.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
It must be a very wide border. I thought a bun was a coil of hair worn pinned to the head. On the other hand ... currant bun is an ISP, I think.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 460 |
and there's a time each year when those buns get hot and cross, too!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
>>...with 'buns' leaning in our direction?<< >>>bordering on the obscene that's some wide border! <<< Tsuwm, I'll thank you not to get so personal. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
I heard a very interesting radio programme today, discussing this subject - here is the website in case you are interested: http://www.bbc.co.uk/routesofenglish/index.shtmlThe premise of the section that I heard was that the popularity of a swear word had a lot to do with its sound. To be very effective it had to sound like a punch, and short vowels make “punchier” words. Some consonants have “explosive” sounds making them particularly effective – try saying “f” or “c” – they can sound quite aggressive. Billy Connolly said that in order to avoid swearing in front of his children he made up quite believable swear words using these principles. Think of the difference between calling someone a “rat”, rather than a “mouse” – a rat would sound more aggressive, even if you knew nothing about the animal. The other interesting area was how much movement there was over the words. “Rabbit” was brought in to replace the word “coney” which had gained a rather course usage. Many words become more acceptable over the years - few of us would be all that offended by most Shakespearian insults - new words are found to take their places.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
To be very effective it had to sound like a punch
The same concept applies to sign languages. In American Sign Language, signs for "defacation" or "intercourse" are often the same when used in medical settings and on the street. Where English differentiates appropriate terminology and expletives by expanding the lexicon, ASL simply modulates a single sign to cover the range of use. Jerkier movements, quicker movements, and a mood-appropriate facial expression are all one needs to convert a sign used in an anatomy class to a Class A expletive.
(Sorry if I've over-citing sign language in recent posts)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
(Sorry if I've over-citing sign language in recent posts)
No, it's quite fascinating. Makes me admire all the more what Anne Sullivan did in teaching Helen Keller to communicate.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
(Sorry if I've over-citing sign language in recent posts)Instead of apologizing for over-citing anything, I should apologize for changing the "I'm" to "I've" without correcting the "over-citing." First drafts often have better grammar. It's the editing that screws everything up.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
It is interesting that ASL uses similar thought processes. Was the language devised in one go or has it grown organically. How do you you cope with new words, other than spelling them out?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
Was the language devised in one go or has it grown organically. How do you you cope with new words, other than spelling them out?
ASL's roots can be traced back to 16th Century France where monks used it as beneficent service to deaf parishioners and as a backdoor to talking during vows of silence. What we now see in ASL (as opposed to French Sign Language) is due to ASL's hybridization after it came into contact with the sign languages of regional areas in the United States (roughly 1820's). In fact, Martha's Vineyard, Mass., had an extraordinarily large deaf community several hundred years ago; most everyone, deaf and hearing, had fluency in both English and ASL.
As for adding to the ASL lexicon, there are general avenues that exist, such as compounding with existing signs, functional shifting, fingerspelling, fingerspelled loan signs (where the fingerspelling is modulated until it becomes its own sign), and the use of classifiers. Most, I feel, come into being through the last avenue, classifiers, because it offers the most freedom and flexibility in creating signs. Further, a classifier is more easily recognized and duplicated because the sign has inherent meaning (within the context of the whole signing system, of course).
For example, MICROWAVE is a former classifier (but is now a legitimate sign) where the fingers on each hand simultaneously classify, or give visual meaning to, the action of waves moving to a central location for the purpose of heating.
I've rarely seen anyone fingerspell INTERNET. Two signs have common use. One is a modulation of the verb sign for CONTACT or NETWORKING. The other is a classifier of fiberoptic cables transmitting loads of data (that actually looks like an "information superhighway").
Are there any other sign language users meandering through these threads?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 37
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 37 |
>>Sorry if I've over-citing sign language in recent posts<<
Brandon,
Actually, I find your posts facinating and am keen to read more of your posts on the subject.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
In fact, Martha's Vineyard, Mass., had an extraordinarily large deaf community several hundred years ago
How did this come to be, please?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 218 |
Martha's Vineyard deaf population...How did this come to be, please?Extracted from http://marthasvineyard.com/html/penn/history.htm"As a result, intermarriage among Chilmarkers brought out a genetic tendency for deafness. At one time more than one-quarter of Chilmark's residents were deaf and could not speak. Old time Vineyarders remember people signing in Chilmark rather than speaking, a difference, not a disability." There are also records of hearing people on the island using sign language to communicate with other hearing people, even when no deaf were present. You can also check out the book "Everyone Here Spoke Sign Language: Hereditary Deafness on Martha's Vineyard" by Nora Ellen Groce. Harvard University Press.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444 |
Also try 'Seeing Voices' by Oliver Sacks. This talks about the deaf and how they communicate more generally than just Martha's Vineyard, but is absolutely fascinating. (Mind you, I love Oliver Sacks because he starts from the premise of difference rather than disability.)
As for citing sign language, Brandon, keep it up!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
I'll dig this thread out of the mists of time in case anyone wants to look at it in relation to the "words which inflict excrucuating pain" thread. I would have just posted a link but everytime I go past the first page it transmogrifies into another thread. Maybe moving it up the pile will sort out the links. It does, of course digress, like all other threads!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
Thank you for bringing this thread up, jmh.
Brandon, I have a question for you. Has anyone tried to use ASL to communicate with autistic people? My son is a high functioning autistic, but struggles so with verbal language processing that I have wondered whether he could better handle language by using his visual learning skills.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
In Hawaii there is an ASL presence and also Gaulladet College. Dearfness and hearing loss is rampant among Native Hawaiians so, through the help of Senator Inouye, Gallaudet has a school in Honolulu. You can start with the basics and go all the way to final certification as a teacher or interpreter of ASL. If you want to learn ASL might as well learn it in Hawaii!!!
wow
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347 |
...I would have just posted a link but everytime I go past the first page it transmogrifies into another thread. Maybe moving it up the pile will sort out the links.
I don't think so, Jo. I find that all cross-thread links behave that way. They're OK when I view them in threaded mode, and the first page is OK in flat mode, but if I click another page number or Show All in flat mode, I go to a completely different thread as you found. This applies whether the link has been referred to with showflat.pl or showthreaded.pl in the url.
Can someone with a better understanding of HTML and browser behaviour provide an explanation and/or solution?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Can someone with a better understanding of HTML and browser behaviour provide an explanation
Whatever you do, you're screwed........
she said in an effort to knit together two aspects of current thread.
wow
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Had a quick look at the HTML - it appears that all behaviour is determined by the server, which is what I would expect. It's a bug, but think of it as a feature ... Microsoft always does.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>I find that all cross-thread links behave that way. They're OK when I view them in threaded mode, and the first page is OK in flat mode, but if I click another page number or Show All in flat mode, I go to a completely different thread as you found. This applies whether the link has been referred to with showflat.pl or showthreaded.pl in the url.
It may be my computer. It seems to be fine on the threads that are on the first couple of pages in each section, after that, they all go loopy. If I bring a thread to the front it sorts itself out (for me, anyway). Are you saying that you still cannot view this thread without it tangling up?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347 |
Are you saying that you still cannot view this thread without it tangling up?No no, Jo, he said assonantally. This thread displays properly for me, as does any other thread accessed by the normal icons and menus of the board. It's only when I click on a URL which is included within a post as a link to another thread that things go awry. But you're onto something - it seems to be "older" threads that misbehave. Try this example... 1. Correct behaviour. If I click on this link: http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=13171a second AWADtalk browser window opens, displaying the correct post "Grammar Primer" from Q&A. If I hit "Show All" I see all posts in that thread. 2. Incorrect behaviour. http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=11941, opens the correct post "place names" in Q&A, but Show All inexplicably displays all posts in the MaxQ's "Two times twice" thread!! Beats me!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>But you're onto something - it seems to be "older" threads that misbehave. Yep, smae thing happens when I try. Funny, I've tried some quite old threads tonight and they appear fine. Unfortunately we wander off the subject so much that sometimes it doesn't even need to cross thread for it to look as if it had gone loopy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788 |
I had a deaf defendant in front of me this week and the court assigned an ASL interpreter to assist in the matter. The interpreter asked if he might move a chair such that he would sit with his back to me and his face to the defendant, defense attorney and prosecutor. I said that would be fine but found it mildly distracting to be looking at the back of his head. When the matter was concluded, I told the interpreter that I learned a little sign when my son studied it in college and was therefor able to grasp some of what he was signing. I was puzzled however by a sign which he used several times during the hearing where he would lift his right elbow such that his upper arm was parellel to the floor and put his right hand over his right ear and then move his sightly-cupped fingers up and down rapidly several times behind his ear. I asked what it meant. "Nothing," he replied, "I had an itch."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
FS, that story has the feel of another lawyer joke being born. I hope you laughed!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,317
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
1 members (wofahulicodoc),
727
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
