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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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That picture of the Mikado pooh-bah looks like the Orphanage keeper who wouldn`t give Oliver any more gruel.
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old hand
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old hand
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Measure for Measure, I think, else - All's well that ends well. Both rather grim, amoral (or morally dubious) pieces, where Shakespeare, world-weary I presume, sends his charcaters through hoops only to arrive at prgamatic resolutions (marriage for money et al). And yes, the Duke's regent asks wossname to sleep with him in exchange for her brother's (?) life. Oh dear, I can't seem to remember this too well. Anyhow - nasty bloke gets something of a comeuppance, thereby justifying the classification of the play as a 'comedy'.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Shakespeare, world-weary I presumeYes, but Shakespeare's plot devices were probably never meant to be better than 'formal' affairs, as opposed to a naturalistic device that could pass for something in real life. … Shakespeare used these devices in order to set up the action - and it is upon the action, the language, the emotional interaction between the characters, and the use of plot/sub-plot parallels that gives Shakespearian drama so much of its power…. Oh, hang on…. http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=7622  Mainly I dug up this thread because some of the newer folks might enjoy stuff like Jo’s tips from Wollogong Pig Breeders' Gazette
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old hand
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Mav
Not denying the glory of complexity that is the Shakespearian canon - just pointing out that certain plays (Measure for measure, Coriolanus, and Troilus and Cressida spring to mind) are problematic in that the over-riding theme appears to be less one of reconciliation (a Shakespearian favourite) and more that of Machiavellian moral barter (more Jacobean than Elizabethan, if you know what I mean). Lear is a bloody play, and so is Julius Caesar, but neither has the life-sapping cynicism that seems to permeate some of the other plays I have mentioned.
[off-thread digression/rant emoticon]
And, of course, some of the earlier comedies seem inchoate (!!!! I knew I'd use that word someday!!!!) - The Comedy of Errors, The Two Gentlemen of Verona, while one, though masterly, can disgust - The Taming of the Shrew (and yes, I've read innumerable apologetics - how it's supposed to be about true love and so on, but for me it is still brutally misogynistic).
To be honest, now that I've started on my rant, I think the only Shakespearian comedies I think of as trule 'life-affirming' are Much ado..., As you like it, The Tempest (hardly a comedy, though) and A Midsummer Night's Dream (reddemed primarily by the character of Bottom). Even The Merchant of Venice seems soiled to me because of the arrogant nastiness of Antonio towards Shylock - the easy acceptance by all the play's 'positive' characters of the 'naturally' lower place of the Jewish money-man.
I suppose this is what comes of bringing a mind brought up in the late twentieth century into contact with an oeuvre from the late sixteenth...[glum emoticon - indicating end of off-thread digression/rant]
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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<<A Midsummer Night's Dream (reddemed primarily by the character of Bottom)>>
Yes, and by the *probability*--the farce--of true love.
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I wrote 'reddemed'? Oh dear. Remind me to check three times! Each time.
The eye has not heard, the ear has not seen, the last of this!!!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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As always your post was a pleasure to read, shanks, and I can only largely agree. I think you have particularly hit the nail on the head with your final suggestion. It seems to me better that we should acknowledge such differences caused by our very different cultural standpoints - state them openly (and not make feeble apologies of the kind you mention about Shrew), so that like any position our assumptions are laid open to subsequent inspection and challenge. I've no worries that the material of the plays is rich enough to support many divergent views; probably none of which will ever be The TRUTH! 
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I've no worries that the material of the plays is rich enough to support many divergent views; probably none of which will ever be The TRUTH!
Thou speakest sooth oh Mav. I think of Coleridge's romantic Hamlet, or the deconstructionists' Marxist Shakespeare and I cannot but agree - even discussing the canon (let alone enjoying it) is rich enough hunting ground!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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for me it is still brutally misogynistic).
To be honest, now that I've started on my rant, Even The Merchant of Venice seems soiled to me because of the arrogant nastiness of Antonio towards Shylock - the easy acceptance by all the play's 'positive' characters of the 'naturally' lower place of the Jewish money-man.
I suppose this is what comes of bringing a mind brought up in the late twentieth century into contact with an oeuvre from the late sixteenth..
You are not alone in this assessment, sunshine. I loathed the MoV, and railed long and hard against its Anti-Semitism to my English teacher, providing him with the sort of world-weary amusement you described earlier. The Shrew was beyond me, as I could not stomach the way that it celebrated misogyny, as if it were the only right and proper way to treat women. The first time I read it I was bewildered, unable to understand how any 20th century minds could enjoy it.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Why doesn't the anti-semitism of Merchant bother me?
***
Anyway, it's the Venicians who come off looking bad, in my opinion.
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