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From a workshop I was at earlier today: defined as a seemingly clever statement that makes a superficial, basically incorrect point. Example: Verdi's greatest opera was his Requiem.
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I don't know much music, but perhaps the Requiem was an opus not an opera?
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Faldage>From a workshop I was at...A comment on Verdi at another time, but since, Faldage, you used the above in your post, I'll just mention that it is one of the truly aggravating mistakes often made by English speakers! In Hebrew & Arabic (and probably other languages as well), one cannot make this mistake as the concept simply does NOT exist in that form. One MUST say (in translation) "from a workshop at which I was [in attendance]..." or "from a workshop I attended"... I guess there is a *pet peeves* thread, but since it was used here, I felt compelled to answer it here! Sorry 'bout that! Now, I suppose you could say I am agita over that!  Shoshannah
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actually®, Sh, (as I understand the term) you have agita over that. 
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But nobody has said what the error was in calling the Requiem an opera. Was it part of an opera?
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here's some commentary I found which may shed some light:
The requiem was embraced by a whole continent. The general opinion was in favor of the requiem. Many shared Brahms' opinion that -"only a genius could have written such a work". There were, however, those who were less enthusiastic.
Hans von bulow, the great conductor, called it:"An opera in ecclesiastical robes", and Wagner, having heard the requiem, is reported to have said, simply, - "it is better to say nothing.."
It is true that the requiem has something of the operatic in it. However, in good performances, the dramatic touch only strengthens the power of this composition.
The question of whether it is truly 'ecclesiastical' is more problematic.
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Dies Irae! I won't steal Faldage's thunder (yes, there's a pun there  ) by explaining his witicism , and while I can't think of another example of such (yet) I must address the grammar point brought up: There is nothing incorrect in English in saying "I was at a workshop," or inverting it for that matter (and love anastrophes I do!). That a structure is inexistent in one language does not make it incorrect in another. Were we to use that logic, then the Spanish "No tengo nada" would be incorrect simply because double negatives are ungrammatical in English.
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There is nothing incorrect in English in saying "I was at a workshop," or inverting it for that matterThank you, AnnaS. I had not thought that there was anything grammatically incorrect about "a workshop I was at", and it's reassuring to have my assumption validated.
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Well - in MY grammar class a long long long time ago, dear Mrs. Kriminger taught us never to end a sentence, or a thought for that matter, with a preposition (in this case, the little 'at'). For instance, you certainly may say "I was at a workshop" but NEVER "A workshop I was at..." Americans (and perhaps other English speakers) consistently use the expression "Where are you from?" But that is also incorrect, for again, the sentence ends with a preposition! The correct form would be "From where are you?" It may sound awkward, but so what, if it's correct?!That grammar is different in different languages has nothing to do with it - I was only sharing that little bit of information for your edification!Of course, I now hear lots of people saying, "He gave that to Joe and I." When I question the use of the pronoun ('I'), the response is that it is more 'proper' to use 'I' when a 'proper name' is used at the same time! So, pray tell, have all the rules of grammar been swept away in a tide of what is 'proper' or easy or 'in style' and do I HAVE agita over this for nothing? AARRGGH! Shoshannah tsuwm - a question: why would I BE agitated but HAVE agita?????
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Re:"Well - in MY grammar class a long long long time ago, dear Mrs. Kriminger taught us never to end a sentence, or a thought for that matter, with a preposition"
Dear Shoshannah: Winston Churchill, whose English is almost univerally admired, had a hilarious sentence mocking the compulsion of avoiding sentences with a preposition at the end. I cannot quote it exactly, but it ends "....up with which I will not put."
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wwh>Churchill..."....up with which I will not put."Bill - that's right, and it may sound awkward. The fact is, Churchill's phrase was not only correct, but also memorable, as YOU remember it and the correct form BECAUSE of it! Good one! Shoshannah
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Shoshannah, I'll go so far as to agree with you on a construction such as "Where are you at?" which can be easily replaced with "Where are you?" Other than that, nothing else to say on the matter for right now. I'd like to hear what others have to say. Dr. Bill, I think it's: "A preposition at the end of a sentence is something up with which I shall not put." And, another favorite, from the little kid gong to bed: "Dad, why did you bring that book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?"
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::sigh:: dear ASp, this keeps coming up. the last time, someone posted a really good rebuttal against. I'll see if a can find it lurking around. keep your chin out. [sometime later] here's *a thread: http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=4180[sometime later still} and now I'm going to quote the whole section from the alt.usage.english FAQ, just because I really think it says everything that needs to be said on the subject... Preposition at end ------------------ Yes, yes, we've all heard the following anecdotes: (1) Winston Churchill was editing a proof of one of his books, when he noticed that an editor had clumsily rearranged one of Churchill's sentences so that it wouldn't end with a preposition. Churchill scribbled in the margin, "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put." (This is often quoted with "arrant nonsense" substituted for "English", or with other variations. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations cites Sir Ernest Gowers' _Plain Words_ (1948), where the anecdote begins, "It is said that Churchill..."; so we don't know exactly what Churchill wrote. According to the Oxford Companion to the English Language, Churchill's words were "bloody nonsense" and the variants are euphemisms.) (2) The Guinness Book of (World) Records used to have a category for "most prepositions at end". The incumbent record was a sentence put into the mouth of a boy who didn't want to be read excerpts from a book about Australia as a bedtime story: "What did you bring that book that I don't want to be read to from out of about 'Down Under' up for?" Mark Brader (msb@sq.com -- all this is to the best of his recollection; he didn't save the letter, and doesn't have access to the British editions) wrote to Guinness, asking: "What did you say that the sentence with the most prepositions at the end was 'What did you bring that book that I don't want to be read to from out of about "Down Under" up for?' for? The preceding sentence has one more." Norris McWhirter replied, promising to include this improvement in the next British edition; but actually it seems that Guinness, no doubt eventually realising that this could be done recursively, dropped the category. (3) "Excuse me, where is the library at?" "Here at Hahvahd, we never end a sentence with a preposition." "O.K. Excuse me, where is the library at, *asshole*?" Fowler and nearly every other respected prescriptivist see NOTHING wrong with ending a clause with a preposition; Fowler calls it a "superstition". ("Never end a sentence with a preposition" is how the superstition is usually stated, although it would "naturally" extend to any placement of a preposition later than the noun or pronoun it governs.) Indeed, Fowler considers "a good land to live in" grammatically superior to "a good land in which to live", since one cannot say "a good land which to inhabit".
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The fact is, Churchill's phrase was not only correct,
but also memorable ... for its customary pithy tongue-in-cheek quality. tsuwm, thank you for the look-up.
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Dear tsuwm: re: "Excuse me, where is the library at?" "Here at Hahvahd, we never end a sentence with a preposition." "O.K. Excuse me, where is the library at, *asshole*?"
That story had to be made up by a real anal orifice who never saw the inside of the Yard. The Widener Memorial Library is the largest building there and has its name in foot high letters easily visible from almost any part of the Yard. And that had to be a Yale man talking to the visitor.
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Not disputing the OED or tsuwm , would never dare!
The way I heard it, from my Dad, was that an American editor cabled Winston that many of his sentences ended with prepositions and asking the great man to re-work several sentences for the American edition of one of his books. Churchill then shot back a cable saying "That is a pedantry, up which I will not put."
That's the story going around the newspaper circles at the time. (late 1940s) I simply repeat it ... keeping myths alive is part of the High Priestess job isn't it??
wow
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Example: Verdi's greatest opera was his Requiem
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In the Oxford Press American Desk Encyclopedia , after noting Verdi's operas Rigoletto, Il travatore, La traviata, Don Carlos and Otello, it says : "Among other compositions are several sacred choral works, including Requiem (1874)."
wow
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Well, I don't see an opus number on the score, whatever that means.
Opus means work. Opus 34, e.g., on a piece of music simply means that that piece of music is the 34th piece written by that particular composer. An opera (plural of opus) is so called because it is a collection of works.
The joke is that Verdi was best known for his operas and the music of the Requiem has a very operatic feel to it. There were other aspects of it that the speaker of the workshop mentioned that were operatic in nature but to call it an opera was to ignore its true nature.
It grew out of a single section that Verdi had written for a project that he had started when the Italian poet and novelist Alessandro Manzoni died. Verdi suggested that the great composers of Italy collaborate to compose a Requiem to honor Manzoni and he took on the task of writing the Libera me section. The resulting Requiem was a failure. It was never performed but Verdi built his Requiem on his section. That Requiem was not a failure.
Verdi, by the way, was an agnostic.
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Or as I countered some one with once-- with a half wittism of someone elses-- "oh yes, I know the rule--A preposition is something you are never supposed to end a sentance with!"
They almost nodded in agreement-- and then realize what i said!
I try not to do it in formal writing-- but I think it is fine in informal speaking.
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pray tell, have all the rules of grammar been swept away….?[rant] Earth calling, Earth calling. Wake up, girl, wherever you’ve been the last 140 years, cause you gotta hear the news – not only have “the rules” been swept away, but also so have their basic validity as a linguistic concept. It is now widely taken for granted that like all other meta-language, linguistic constructions such as ‘grammar’ are post-facto creations of the human mind – they are descriptions, models, attempts to find the patterns in what is, not some frumpy schoolmarm-ish code of what must be. Descriptions of how particular speech communities use their variety of language – yes. Guidance notes as to what may therefore be preferable to fit certain social norms – sometimes. Rules – never. So sorry, as you seen to have an insecure craving for The TRUTH – but RealLife™ is more complicated. As for your assertion that It may sound awkward, but so what, if it's correct? – I can be bothered to raise nothing more grand than a big fat raspberry. If you cannot hear the natural euphony of a language, you are failing to even get to first base. And hence your ability to turn the famous Winston Churchill quote through 180° of meaning - no dabbling in the box of coloured crayons can recompense for that. [/rant]
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"a silly rule, up with which I shall not put."These things are not always prepositions, see http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=12094. A good example of the difference might be something like: 1) Jack and Jill went up a big hill. This is a classic example of subject-verb-object (prepositional phrase). It would not be correct to say: 2) *Jack and Jill went a big hill up. But: 3) Jack and Jill ran up a big bill. Up is not a prepostion. This is an example of the phrasal verb ran up of which a big bill is the object. We can say: 4) Jack and Jill ran a big bill up. This structure is common to many of the Germanic languages, see the German separable prefix. The form of these separable prefixes is generally identical to prepositions and may, in fact, predate them, but that's another subject. The notion of the phrasal verb seems to have been lost to the grammar of the prescriptive, if it doesn't match Latin there's something wrong with it, grammarians. It's my not so humble opinion that the cases in which the thing at the end of the sentence actually is a preposition are a result of the burying of the phrasal verb concept by those prescriptive grammarians and the reaction of native speakers who understood the phrasal verb on a native speaker level (without having any formal rule to quote) but were unable to separate it from the prepositional phrase structure. And a challenge for anyone who thinks that "up with which I shall not put" is correct: parse that phrase; tell me what is the object of each of those things that you think are prepositions.
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Dear Faldage, Mind the corner you painted yourself into : A good example of the difference might be something like:
1) Jack and Jill went up a big hill.so far so good. What wrong with: That's the big hill Jack and Jill went up ?
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wsieber asks, "What's wrong with: That's the big hill Jack and Jill went up ?
A good question. Which gets us to the simple fact that the rules, such as they are, are reinvented every generation. We learn what sounds right by the time we are about three and anything that doesn't sound right is wrong, regardless of what some defender of the received rules may say. If this weren't the case we would still be speaking an inflected language in which relations between words would be expressed more by case structure than by word order and we would know the difference between prepositions and phrasal verb affixes. As it stands we have nothing to rely on except William Safire's rule, "If it sounds funny, the hell with it." Most of us who think that "it is I"* sounds funny will continue to say "it's me" and let the linguists worry about whether the verb to be has gained a transitive sense.
*Does anyone argue that it should be "it am I"?
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Dear Faldage: How about a discussion of the correct usage of "will" and "shall". In the Churchill quote, it seems to me that "I shall not put" is weak, and "I will not put" is stronger, indicating volition, where "shall" is simple futurity.
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where "shall" is simple futurity.
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Was he not talking about what he would or would not do in the future?
wow
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No, he was telling what he damned well would not do.
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I have this rule categorized (rightly or wrongly) as another one of those rules that someone decided people should follow without any basis in historical usage. I was once given an assignment in an English linguistics class to listen to normal usage and count the occurrences of will and shall. I heard zero cases of will and an equal number of cases of shall; I heard many cases of 'll.
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If someone asks you to submit to some humiliation, would you not think "I will not!" stronger than "I shall not"? I shall not sounds wimpy to me.
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The rule changes depending on whether the subject is first person or second/third person.
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In reply to:
*Does anyone argue that it should be "it am I"?
I do.
-- Sam.
Leading me to the question: is the marvelous Dr Seuss known outside the US?
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As when your Mother says "You shall do as I wish."
Meaning, if you don't, you'll regret it!
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>shall not sounds wimpy
in the world of technical writing -- specifically writing system, hardware and software requirements -- "will" is wimpy. "shall" is used as the flag signifying "this is a requirement". this is actually Rule One for writing requirements in many shops.
-joe (rule two: the voice of the customer) friday
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If this weren't the case we would still be speaking an inflected language....
Beautifully put, Faldage.
And Dr Seuss, oh Sparteye? oh, yes, sirree!
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Leading me to the question: is the marvelous Dr Seuss known outside the US?
What??!! You can't be serious, surely? Dr. Seuss is truly world-famous, even if it's a crying shame that more world leaders didn't get the point of The Lorax.
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Sorry, Max. I try to avoid assuming that somebody famous in the US is famous anywhere else, even if it is the extraordinary Dr Seuss. One of his great secrets: if you are having a hard time thinking of a word which rhymes, make one up!
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Your modesty does you credit, Sparteye. This tread has inspired me to add the good doctor to my list of "victims to plunder for the anniversary thread." 
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There's a problem with having your (only) computer in your office. I come in on Monday and find a brand new thread going onto 4 pages, lots of discussion, and already branching out into other subjects. Such is the nature of this amazing forum.
I had two responses to Faldage's original posting:
the first was that the statement about the Verdi Requiem is really funny and not far off base;
the second was to recall a bon mot of my father's: "He thinks he's a real wit, and he's half right."
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You respond late, you're right at the top of the list.
"He thinks he's a real wit, and he's half right."
I like it.
The guy doing the workshop went on for about ten minutes defending the "greatest opera" quip and then pointed out all the reasons it wasn't that clever. I don't remember any of them.
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I shall not sounds wimpy to me.
Is there a lawyer on the Board who would care to give the legal distinctions between "will" and "shall"?
wow
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Mav - I wrote a long and involved reply, but since you don't really care about 'the rules' and have decided to write them for yourself as you go along in your life, such as it is [do you live in chaos? Ah, I thought so], this simple reply will do.
Get a grip, Mav! Many more educated, more intuitive, more intelligent people have gone before you and have determined a more realistic and down-to-earth way of living that makes it possible for us to all get along in this, the only world we have.
THE RULES makes this possible, don't you know!
Shoshannah
And BTW - you don't really think that I don't know about REAL LIFE, do you??? What a thing to say! You do realize that my version of REAL LIFE has to do with LIFE and DEATH on a daily basis and TRUTH is the only thing worth striving for in a situation like this??? Pay attention, Mav - REAL LIFE and TRUTH may be calling you!
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wow>Is there a lawyer on the Board who would care to give the legal distinctions between "will" and "shall"?
Well, you may know that basic Western law (British & American, anyway) is based on the Torah - yes, whether you like it or not - and the TEN COMMANDMENTS - believe in them or not, as you wish - ALL translate to SHALL (not will), as in "Thou shall have no other gods before me" and "Thou shall not murder" (it's not kill, but murder... an important distinction), etc. etc.
So perhaps, after all, SHALL is the stronger of the two?
Shoshannah
Of course, Israeli law is basically the Torah, though we do use some concepts from British & American modern law and some Jordanian (from 1948-1967, but not the Islamic laws that require body dismemberment for crimes committed) and even some Ottoman laws still apply in some cases.
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Dear Shoshannah: remember the distinctions that have been made between the first and second persons. "I will" to me is stronger than "I shall". "Thou shalt" is stronger than "you will", unless the "will" is really emphasized.
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>tsuwm - a question: why would I BE agitated but HAVE agita?????
sorry, this one fell in the crack(s)...
because agitated is a verb (past tense) meaning disturbed
and agita is a noun meaning acid indigestion.
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wwh>remember the distinctions that have been made between the first and second persons. "I will" to me is stronger than "I shall". "Thou shalt" is stronger than "you will", unless the "will" is really emphasized.
Bill - that's what I always thought (and mostly still do), except for that Ten Commandments thing - I've been studying more on the 613 Mitzvot, so it was fresh in my mind which is why I brought it up. Ordinarily, I would have just agreed with the 'I will' part, but now, I'm not so sure. More thinking and perhaps examples would be helpful on this one!
Shoshannah
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tsuwm - well, why can't I seem to find 'agita' in my dictionary??? I was stopped when I read that post - never heard the word, and certainly no one I know over here (English speakers at least) uses it? Did someone just start using it as slang or what?
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>tsuwm - well, why can't I seem to find 'agita' in my dictionary??? what's with the continuing gamash of ?'s on this?! either get a bigger dictionary or try OneLook.com!?
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Dear Shoshannah: even a heathen like me knows that the Ten Commandments were spoken by G_D, and His words had maximum force.
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I'm not a lawyer (and await Sparteye's more detailed elucidation on this), but having been involved in the negotiation of a couple of international treaties, I can tell you that the lawyers at the US Department of State feel that "shall" is strong stuff indeed. The first international agreement I've had anything to do with was full of that word, and it took FOREVER to get even the little pieces done, because "shall" was seen as so very strong and binding. Working on a less lofty agreement (I believe, in fact, we had to call it an "arrangement," as agreement meant a greater commitment than was intended), we had to use "should," because it was not going to be signed at the executive (i.e. Presidential) level.
Ever since I've had a very strong feeling that "shall" carries the most water among the wills, shoulds, woulds and coulds.
p.s. Sparteye - I imagine you know this, but I winced when the spellwrecker rendered your name as Spasm. It thinks mine is Hyman (yes, spelled with an "a" - which is not a word I know).
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Ummm, I think Mav. was referring to prescriptive grammar rules rather than rules for living in general. The two should not be confused. Even if no English speaker ever again ended a sentence with a preposition (the point presently under discussion) there would be the same amount of murder, rape, and other violent crime in this sorry world.
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Bingley, you're right indeed. What with ranting and raving and sentences ending in prepositions, you really wonder sometimes what the world's coming to ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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If I stumble on 'the Truth' I'll clear that up for you CK.
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Thanks all, public and private. In a way, though, perhaps I am also getting at something more than just the preposition thing, though my argument was mainly linguistical. My reply to Shoshannah:
Thanks for sparing us a long screed – by reducing it to just personal bitching, I suspect you kept the main points of your argument.
What interests me about many of your posts is your readiness to leap to assumptions. You are actually unlikely to find many people in this world who care more passionately about rules than do I – but I prefer rules that are negotiated openly between rational human beings, not handed down as second- or third-hand mantra. I have a pretty good ‘grip’, and a key part of that is keeping in mind the thoughts of Cromwell, beseeching another group of ‘educated, intuitive and intelligent’ people to just consider the possibility that they are wrong. Maintaining that core of humility underpins rationality. I believe your approach is fundamentally irrational, which is why I find your spoutings so disagreeable.
I cannot know your circumstances, as you cannot know mine, which is why I gave my use of ‘real life’ a heavy dose of irony by use of SelloType™. But your arrogant assumption that people being killed (for reasons that I would suggest have a lot to do with just such a failure to negotiate as described) around you gives you some sort of special insight into “TRUTH” is deeply sad. From such closed minds, blood flows as it has throughout mankind’s history.
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Shoshannah notes: So perhaps, after all, SHALL is the stronger of the two?
This is, of course, from an early Modern English translation and in no way reflects any Hebrew language conventions which would be irrelevant anyway. Those who use such words as shall, will and should in a context in which it is critical that they be understood as intended by the writer are well advised to make the meaning clear in the introduction or foreword to the document in which the terms are being used. In technical manuals this is usually accomplished by such statements as:
In this document when the word SHALL is used in all caps and bold print it means that failure to follow the directions can cause severe damage to equipment and personnel. When the word SHOULD is used it means that minor errors could cause improper functioning of the equipment. Whether the improper functioning will cause collateral damage is dependent on external circumstances, e.g., failure of a program to operate properly in a device that is controlling the manufacture of ice cubes may result in failure to produce ice cubes; failure of a program to operate properly in a device that is cooling a nuclear reactor may cause meltdown of the reactor and significant damage to neighboring communities.
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I must precede my discussion of legal definitions of shall, must, will, should and may with the caveat that common use of these terms can differ from legal use, the efforts of the Plain English in the Law movement notwithstanding. These definitions are based on American law, which, except for Louisiana, is based on the English common law, and thus I suspect that usages are similar in many other English language legal systems.
Shall = has a duty to
Must = (no legal definition, so the lay definition applies) = used to express an imperative
Will = (no legal definition other than that pertaining to the document used to dispose of a decedent’s estate, so a lay definition) = expected or required to
Should = (lay again) = pt of shall, indicative of duty, propriety or expediency
May = is permitted to
In drafting contracts or statutes, "shall" is often used to impose a mandatory duty, but the use of "shall" is in large part attributable to the inertia of legal writing (some of the statutes still in effect were initially drafted over 100 years ago). I use "must" instead. It also conveys imperative, but at least in the US is the more modern and common term, and thus far has not caused confusion over its meaning like "shall" occasionally does. Sometimes, the Legislature will confuse "shall" and "may," or "and" and "or," making interpretation more of an art than a science.
I agree with prior posters that "shall" clearly means an imperative when spoken by one as a command to another, but conveys a meaning closer to expectation when spoken about oneself. In contracts or statutes, of course, only the command nuance arises.
Per Webster’s, the traditional rule says that future time is indicated by "shall" in the first person and "will" in the other persons, and that determination is expressed by "will" in the first person and "shall" in other persons. Webster’s and the Gregg Reference Manual both say that "shall" has largely given way to "will" in all but the most formal writing and speech, and that "should" and "would" similarly have formal and informal distinctions and follow the same rules in expressions of future time, determination, and willingness.
Well, I could go on, but I will not, as there are things I must do and I should get back to work.
I shall return.
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Shoshannah, while I found your outburst very disturbing, egregious almost, I will respond by simply pointing out that mav's comments about the rules were made specifically, and exclusively, in regard to rules of language. The extrapolation you made to rules in general was both unwarranted and off-topic. It is very easy for someone to hold rules of grammar in low esteem while still living by other rules. I happen to think that mav's original post could well have been couched more diplomatically, and that its tenor was somewhat confrontational. I think that such an approach is unfortunate and not in the best interests of this Board, and it is my concern for the Board that has moved me to post this publicly, loathe though I was to do so.
This Board as thrived as a community of people with widely, nay hugely, disparate views on almost any subject imaginable. In my opinion, it has thrived because those views have always been expressed calmly, quietly, and with civility, often even with humour. When those differing views begin to be expressed with rancour, aggression, and personal hostility, the unique spirit of AWADtalk comes under threat. I do not ask, nor do I wish, that everyone agree on everything, or even keep quiet about everything they don't agree on, I simply beseech all to maintain the remarkable history of tolerance and civility this Board has established. I also recognise that every person who reads this has the absolute right to think of me, and this post, whatever they will. To all I extend my sincere wish that you may be at peace.
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Well, see, there you have it.
Thank you, Sparteye.
Umm, I've already forgotten the rule.
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thank you, max. your post - together with your eloquent birthday sentiments - summed my own feelings in a way that i could never have expressed so clearly.
nobody loves a good argument more than me, provided it's done with exceeding respect by all involved parties. some of these posts are making me feel uncomfortable, and it can't be much fun for the posters, either.
would it be hopelessly naive of me to suggest that we all start with clean slates, in honor of AWAD's birthday, and more importantly so that we don't tarnish this wonderful forum that Anu has given us, which so many of us hold dear?
sophomorically yours,
B96
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Bridget96 suggests : we all start with clean slates, in honor of AWAD's birthday
Hear! Hear! Bridget96.
Having peeked in on several chat/board sites before I found AWAD I am particularly aware of the decency and civility of AWADtalk. Long may it endure.
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Sparteye
Subject: Re: Shall/must/will/should/may
Thank you Sparteye.
definitions are based on American law ... except for Louisiana,
One more question : is the Louisiana law based on the Napoleonic Code ?
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I used to erase blackboards, but haven't seen an eraser for a long time. It used to be fun to let my fingernails overlap the felt just enough so that they made a real screech. The teacher was as deaf as I am now, and kept wondering why the girls were jumping so, until one of them squealed on me. I got excused from further blackboard duty.
How do I clean my slate now? The moving finger keeps writing.......
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Bravo, Max! Although I've only lately registered, I've browsed AWADtalk for months and the change in the tenor of the posts is a little disturbing. One of the things I've enjoyed has been the general good-spirited apparent camaraderie among the posters. Stridency is not my thing, so let's all shake hands and begin again! (And, no, my real name is NOT Polyanna)
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good show, max. I'd just add one thing: remember back around election time in the U.S. when politics last reared its ugly head 'round here? we stomped that puppy flat. I'm thinkin' we should have remained vigilant....
who knows what evil lurks therein?
(the shadow do!)
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when politics last reared its ugly head 'round here? we stomped that puppy flat. I'm thinkin' we should have remained vigilant....okay, just so i have this straight: We've ruled out religion and politics.... so we're left to argue about what, specifically?
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so we're left to argue about what, specifically? Of prescriptivism vs. descriptivism, Of shoes - and ships - and sealing wax - Of cabbages - and kings - And why the sea is boiling hot - And whether pigs have wings.' That should do for starters.
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... and whether 42 in fact was the correct answer, and whether CapK should carry on abusing ellipsis now he that knows how to spell it [ellipsis] that should do for starters!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Must I be the first to throw down my glove?
Well, OK. If I must.
Cabbages are the best (unless rendered unrecognizable by sauerkrauting), but sealing wax sucks.
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Without meaning to pick on my dear friend Fiberbabe, the word "sucks" is one I dislike very much. It seems quite likely that it originated in an activity that is not party talk.I am almost surprised the gay community has not managed to make its use as a pejorative non PC.
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> Without meaning to pick on my dear friend Fiberbabe...No picking taken! I actually thought for a moment as I wrote the word, "Hmmm... probably not indicative of my most sparkly vocabulary, particularly in such gentle company. Oh well." [Send] I apologize if I did offend. Let's just say I find sealing wax despicable, for the sake of causing a stir...
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In reply to:
One more question : is the Louisiana law based on the Napoleonic Code ?
Yes, Ma'am. Exactly. And I, for one, have never done a dot of research on Louisiana law, and have no idea how near or far it might be from English common law. Scribbler? Father Steve?
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Yes-- again- I got "extra credit" in an accounting class for knowing that-- the GAAP--(General Agreed Accounting Practices--i think) does not apply in Louisiana either.
It effects inhertence-- in Napolionic code, the first son inherts-- not the wife, and if there are only daughters, the daughters husbands have control of the money (think of the scene from "Streetcar named Desire" when Stanely tell his sister in law -- he know the law! ) there are some other changes in stock, bonds, shares and investments. Our class didn't cover how it was different--and we were taught gaap rules-- and the louisiana didn't use them!
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sealing wax
*wow*, it just occurred to me that i've been mondegreening one of my favorite songs for the past 30 years. i've always thought that Jackie Paper brought ceiling wax to entertain Puff.
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and i thought i was crazy for (wall) papering my ceilings-- you wax your? I have enough trouble getting to wax my floors--
I am able to say you are able to off my floors-- there are crumbs everywhere!
I believe in an orderly house everything has place, and each thing is in its place-- So dust bunnies belong under the beds and furniture, and cobwebs belong in the dark corners.. It make cleaning much easier to keep things to clean when you realize the things like dust bunnies and cobwebs have their place.
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As always, Max, your plea for tolerance and civility is eloquent indeed. I will take note and try to moderate my occasional outbursts. I do not, however, retract or apologise for a single word, as I meant all I said from the depths of my soul. This, too, is an important function of language.
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of troy's post reminded me of a poem i have hanging in the hall, which i refer to when my husband complains about coming home to a disaster: Some houses try to hide the fact
That children shelter there.
Ours boasts of it quite openly;
the signs are everywhere:
For smears are on the mirrors,
little smudges on the doors...
I should apologize, i guess,
for the toys strewn on the floor.
But i sat down with the children (in between AWAD sessions)
and we laughed and played and read...
and if the doorbell doesn't shine,
their eyes will shine instead.
So quiet down, cobwebs,
dust go to sleep...
I'm rocking my baby,
and babies don't keep.
~author unknown
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it just occurred to me that i've been mondegreening one of my favorite songs for the past 30 years. i've always thought that Jackie Paper brought ceiling wax to entertain Puff.I don't think that's really a mondegreen because you didn't hear the word wrong, just interpreted it incorrectly. Not sure which one is worse, you decide.
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bill objects the word "sucks" is one I dislike very much. It seems quite likely that it originated in an activity that is not party talk.yah, boo! (as shanks would say.) that may be a logical assumption to draw, bill, but the OED traces it differently; to wit: 15f. To be contemptible or disgusting. slang. Cf. suck n.1 12.
1971 It 2–16 June 3/2 Polaroid sucks! For some time the Polaroid Corporation has been supplying the South African government with large photo systems+to use for photographing blacks for the passbooks+every black must carry. 1976 G. V. Higgins Judgment of Deke Hunter vi. 59, I had a lousy summer.+ I thought it sucked, and I bet next summer'll suck too. 1978 M. Gordon Final Payments xi. 193 All the hotels have the same pictures. The last one, the food sucked. and so we dutifully follow along to the noun.1 12: 12. Canad. slang. A worthless or contemptible person. Cf. suck v. 15f; suck-hole* s.v. suck-.
1974 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 8 Mar. 1/6 The teachers are copping out. They're now saying, if we can't have our way, then we're going to be sucks and refuse to work. 1975 Citizen (Ottawa) 28 Oct. 1/1 A neighbor described Rob as ‘a quiet guy who was always getting put down a lot. Lots of people used to call him a suck.+ He didn't do much socially or in the way of sports.’ ...but this also regresses to n.1.11: 11. pl. as int. Used as an expression of contempt, chiefly by children. Also in phr. sucks to you and varr. slang.
1913 C. Mackenzie Sinister Street I. i. vii. 98 This kid's in our army, so sucks! 1922 F. Hamilton P.J.: Secret Service Boy iv. 178 ‘S’, he announced, ‘u,c,k,s,t,o,y,o,u.’ 1935 N. Mitchison We have been Warned i. 28 Brian is a baby. Oh sucks, oh sucks on Brian. 1945 E. Waugh Brideshead Revisited ii. v. 287 It's great sucks to Bridey. 1952 ‘C. Brand’ London Particular xv. 191 A most regretable air of sucks to you. 1968 Melody Maker 30 Nov. 24/5 This is a rotten record—yah boo and sucks. 1974 Times 4 Mar. 9/5 Sucks boo, then, with acting like this, to that new National Theatre down the road. 1978 ‘J. Lymington’ Waking of Stone ii. 45 ‘Sucks to you!’ she said+tossing her head so her pigtails swung. 1983 Listener 19 May 11/1 The council treated the urbane Mr Cook to the politician's equivalent of ‘Yah, boo, sucks’. I sincerely hope that explication didn't suck too much. *suck-hole - [n] a whirlpool [v] to toady [he won't suck-hole to anyone]
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Dear tsuwm: for once I am not impressed by your references'
I remember hearing "cocksucker" shortened to "sucker" to "he sucks" over seventy years ago. There was also "sucker" meaning a gullible person. I don't believe "sucks" can be totally divorced from "cocksucker".
I don't doubt that a lot of people that have used it were not aware of that possibility. But that is similar to the number of times I have heard "scumbag" used by people who had copied it from someone else without knowing what it really meant.Don't try calling a cop that.
It may not be hazardous now, but I can remember when calling a Canadian a "bum" could get you a punch in the mouth.
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>...shortened to "sucker" to "he sucks" over seventy years ago.
well, bill, 1913 (in use by kids) is almost 90 years ago.
sometimes we see connections that we want to see -- it's probably true of the OED folks as well.
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Of course many commonly used words had meanings related to sex a long time ago. I wonder how old male and female for threads is. And the expression "I won't stand for that" is so similar to the stock breeder's term that I wonder if it originated with the stock breeders.
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