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antepenultimate #208810
01/08/13 06:04 AM
01/08/13 06:04 AM
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Louisville, Kentucky
Jackie Offline OP
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I just love this word. Ante is of course before, and ultimate here means final, but what's the purpose/etymology of pen, please?

Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie] #208811
01/08/13 06:08 AM
01/08/13 06:08 AM
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maverick Offline
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from Latin paene "almost" + ultimus "final"

then there's preantepenultimate, and... smile

Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie] #208816
01/08/13 10:25 AM
01/08/13 10:25 AM
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scribbler101 Offline
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Have some Madeira, m'Dear!
It's really an excellent year.
Now if it were gin, you'd be wrong to say yes,
The evil gin does would be hard to assess
(Besides it's inclined to affect my prowess)
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!"

Then there flashed though her mind what her mother had said
With her antepenultimate breath:
"Oh my child, should you look at the wine which is red
Be prepared for a fate worse than death!"

Re: antepenultimate [Re: maverick] #208818
01/08/13 03:36 PM
01/08/13 03:36 PM
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this too shall pass
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Originally Posted By: maverick

then there's preantepenultimate, and... smile


you can actually find this used quite a bit in discussions of stress and syllabication/syllabification.

but here's my question: preantepenultimate is often defined as 'fourth from last'; why isn't it third from the last?

ultimate: last
penultimate: next to the last
antepenultimate: second? from the last
pre~: third? from the last

unless, of course you're counting from the 'edge', as in a photo:
on the left is.. second from the left.. third from the left

Re: antepenultimate [Re: maverick] #208819
01/08/13 03:54 PM
01/08/13 03:54 PM
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from Latin paene "almost"

Whence our peninsula (lit. 'almost an island').


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Re: antepenultimate [Re: zmjezhd] #208841
01/09/13 12:41 AM
01/09/13 12:41 AM
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maverick Offline
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> island

faskinating, thanks for that nunc - I had never made that connection (a bridge too far?)

Re: antepenultimate [Re: tsuwm] #208842
01/09/13 01:10 AM
01/09/13 01:10 AM
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> you can actually find this used quite a bit in discussions of stress and syllabication/syllabification.

scene - interior, consultant's room, view of LA thro' window
Consultant: So, tell me, what triggers this overwhelming stress?
Patient: It’s the syllables, doctor – every time I see antepenultimate I get in a tizzy because I don’t know if they mean fourth from last or third from last!

but here's my question: preantepenultimate is often defined as 'fourth from last'; why isn't it third from the last?

tsory, didn't mean to ignore your question. We might some of us remember this cropping up from Anu a while ago.

It seems to me rather a confusion about what the label means – in other words, “third to last” may sound like it should be three behind the last, but the expression has grown up evidently meaning otherwise: ‘second to last’ commonly is clear as ‘the horse that came in ahead of only one other’ – it was (in this topsy-turvy inverted frame of reference) placed second, surpassed by only one in the race to the bottom.
Hm, that’s prolly as clear as mud but.

Re: antepenultimate [Re: scribbler101] #208844
01/09/13 01:15 AM
01/09/13 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: scribbler101
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!
It's really an excellent year.
Now if it were gin, you'd be wrong to say yes,
The evil gin does would be hard to assess
(Besides it's inclined to affect my prowess)
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!"


smile Thanks for reminding me of Flanders & Swann - underrated, and surely overdue for revival in perhaps a biographically based show...

Re: antepenultimate [Re: maverick] #208845
01/09/13 01:22 AM
01/09/13 01:22 AM
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this too shall pass
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you want not clear as mud? OED has this for preantepenultimate:

That precedes or stands immediately before the antepenult; the last but three.

Re: antepenultimate [Re: tsuwm] #208846
01/09/13 01:44 AM
01/09/13 01:44 AM
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I think the confusion creeps in when you tried to specify
> antepenultimate: second? from the last [e.a.]

The common phrase I think is based on an elision:
Penultimate is ‘second [compared] to last’ whilst antepenultimate is ‘third to last’, leaving preantepenultimate in ‘fourth to last’ position (or the ‘last excepting three’ as per OED).

Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie] #208849
01/09/13 04:45 AM
01/09/13 04:45 AM
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Auckland, New Zealand
olly Offline
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0 - Ultimate first
1 - Penultimate Second
2 - Antepenultimate Third
3 - Preantepenultimate Fourth

Re: antepenultimate [Re: olly] #208857
01/09/13 02:37 PM
01/09/13 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: olly
0 - Ultimate first
1 - Penultimate Second
2 - Antepenultimate Third
3 - Preantepenultimate Fourth


This is fine until you throw in "from last". If ultimate is "last" is it also anything "from last"? I like the OED's "last but n".

Re: antepenultimate [Re: Faldage] #208864
01/09/13 06:51 PM
01/09/13 06:51 PM
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Yes, the but n~ config is nice and clear - but I think so is the use of the word to as a comparative against the defined position. The word 'from' throws confusion in the mix.

Re: antepenultimate [Re: maverick] #208882
01/10/13 02:09 PM
01/10/13 02:09 PM
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Northamptonshire, England
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Originally Posted By: maverick
Originally Posted By: scribbler101
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!
It's really an excellent year.
Now if it were gin, you'd be wrong to say yes,
The evil gin does would be hard to assess
(Besides it's inclined to affect my prowess)
Have some Madeira, m'Dear!"


smile Thanks for reminding me of Flanders & Swann - underrated, and surely overdue for revival in perhaps a biographically based show...


I have "At the Drop of a Hat" and "At the Drop of Another Hat" on CD and giggle my way to work and back listening to them from time to time ...

Were you aware that Stephanie Flanders, the BBC's economics editor, is Michael Flanders' daughter?


The idiot also known as Capfka ...
Re: antepenultimate [Re: Capital Kiwi] #208891
01/10/13 05:28 PM
01/10/13 05:28 PM
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> Stephanie

Yes, I frequently chuckle when I hear her pontificating on matters economical - have some madeira, m'dear!

Re: antepenultimate [Re: maverick] #208924
01/11/13 05:15 AM
01/11/13 05:15 AM
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Louisville, Kentucky
Jackie Offline OP
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paene -- why is this so close orthographically to paean? She said grumblingly.

Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie] #208928
01/11/13 11:02 AM
01/11/13 11:02 AM
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Because, m'dear, some 2,000 years ago those pesky Romans decided that one Jackie Fulner, unpredictably bred out of the chaos that would follow the collapse of the empire, and living in a non-existent city in an unknown land, would be PISSED OFF AT THEM!

And the Romans liked barbarians to be pissed off at them. It gave the legions something to do besides overthrowing emperors. So it's all your fault, and don't you dare try to say other, my girl!



The idiot also known as Capfka ...
Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie] #208929
01/11/13 01:28 PM
01/11/13 01:28 PM
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And that gave rise to the following sequence of bathroom graffiti:

I LIKE GRILS

YOU MEAN "GIRLS"

BUT WHAT ABOUT US GRILS?

Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie] #208931
01/11/13 03:03 PM
01/11/13 03:03 PM
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R'lyeh
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why is this so close orthographically to paean?

They're not that close. Latin paene 'almost' is an adverb, while Latin paean 'hymn to Apollo' is a noun and a loan from Greek Παιαν (Paian).


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie] #208932
01/11/13 04:25 PM
01/11/13 04:25 PM
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I think she meant orthographically close to English-speaking Western eyes ...


The idiot also known as Capfka ...
Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie] #208947
01/12/13 05:30 AM
01/12/13 05:30 AM
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Louisville, Kentucky
Jackie Offline OP
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I did, you. smile

Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie] #208957
01/12/13 11:13 AM
01/12/13 11:13 AM
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Well, then ... grin


The idiot also known as Capfka ...
Re: antepenultimate [Re: Jackie] #208960
01/12/13 01:10 PM
01/12/13 01:10 PM
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Not to mention that orthography and parts of speech have little, if any relation to each other.

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