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newbie
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What is the pronunciation of "timor?" Is this word used, or is it just in the adjective form?
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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I've never seen 'timor' as an English noun. In the line of Latin used as the refrain of the poem by... Henryson?... whoever..., Timor mortis conturbat me, I use a short -i- as in the name, and a full -or, not a neutral vowel: but even I admit to being unsure how a Middle English poet speaking a Northern dialect would have pronounced Mediaeval Latin intended to rhyme with his English, so that's a bit academic.
The island is of course not relevant, because it's an Austronesian word for 'east' taken in through Portuguese.
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journeyman
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journeyman
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I've come across it at least once in a modern book, but looking at my shelves, I can't remember which one. That's my memory for you.  When I've heard it spoken (very rarely) it's sounds like Tim-or-us, with the emphasis on Tim, with the rest quickly rolling after. I should have checked before I started the reply, but Anu usually has a link to a sound file on the Today's Word page. Maybe you should check there. (I usually have to go there anyway, because alas, my ISP is a pain in the rear. Only one in ten AWAD gets through.) Ali
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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it's an Austronesian word for 'east' taken in through Portuguese.Now that's interesting, Nicholas. (Delighted you're here, BTW!  ) So East Timor, Indonesia, is really East East? How odd. And, JosieWales-who-has-almost-the-name-of-my-favorite-Clint-Eastwood-flick, if timor is a word, I'd guess its pronunciation would be TIMor, since we have TIMorous.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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the line of Latin used as the refrain of the poem by... Henryson?... whoever
From David Crystal: The English Language:
Verses from William Dunbar’s Lament for the Makaris (Elegy for the Poets), written about 1505. The Latin line is taken from the Office of the Dead, and translates ‘The fear of death troubles me’
The state of man dois change and vary
Now sound, now seik, now blith, now sary
Now dansand mery, now like to dee
Timor mortis conturbat me.
No stait in erd heir standis sicker
As with the wynd wavis the wicker
Wavis this warldis vanité
Timor mortis conturbat me.
***********
From the end of the 14thc. to the beginning of the 17th, there was a flowering of literature in Scots, a period which reached its peak in the poetry of Robert Henryson and William Dunbar. But during the 17thc. the Scots literary language began to decay, as it fell increasingly under the influence of the southern standard. …the uniting of the crowns of Scotland and England in 1603, and the move to London of James VI and the Scottish court… led in due course to the adoption among the upper classes of southern English norms of speech… thus spreading further the influence of the southern standard as a prestige form.
Penguin, 1988 ISBN 0-14-013532-4 “A splendid blend of erudition and entertainment” Times H/Ed Supplement (for anyone new to David’s work)
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Boy, am I glad I read this thread! How could I have spent all of my life thinking that the first syllable of timorous is pronounced time?  Thank you, everyone, for sparing me much potential embarrassment.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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So East Timor, Indonesia, is really East East? How odd.
Yes, well I'm assuming so: the Indonesian name for it as a province was Timor Timur. The native (Tetum) name is Timor Loro-Sae, where loro-sae is literally something like 'rising sun'/'sunrise', IIRC.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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William Dunbar’s Lament for the Makaris (Elegy for the Poets), written about 1505
Okay by 1505 it was Middle Scots, not Middle English (I was thinking of it as earlier).
Now the two verses you quote don't illustrate it, but my problem with rhymes was that he not only rhymes Latin mê with English long e, as expected, but also with what is now a final short or long -i vowel:
And feblit with infermite;
Timor mortis conturbat me.
...
The flesche is brukle, the Fend is sle;
Timor mortis conturbat me.
...
etc. with many other examples throughout it
(Southern English: short /i/ in infirmity, long /i:/ in sly -- this was of course before the Great Vowel Shift moved /sli:/ to /slai/.)
If Middle Scots was simply intermediate between Middle English and Modern Scots English, this is odd. What I suspect must have happened is that final /i:/ had moved down to /e:/ by Dunbar's time, and was later restored by southern English influence.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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If Middle Scots was simply intermediate between Middle English and Modern Scots English, this is odd. What I suspect must have happened is that final /i:/ had moved down to /e:/ by Dunbar's time, and was later restored by southern English influence. etc
Nicholas W.
Please follow the following instructions:
1. Highlight the following word
2. Useful
3. Use "copy" feature (either by right clicking on mouse, or pulling down edit menu).
4. Open your profile
5. Find the phrase "completely useless voluminous knowledge of languages"
6. Highlight the word "useless"
7. Use "paste" feature to overwrite the word
8. Close profile
Thnak you.
That is much better!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Timur is indeed the Indonesian word for East. Timor is the name of the island, which is divided into Timor Timur (East Timor) and Timor Barat (West Timor). What Timor means in Timorese I don't know.
Bingley
Bingley
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