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Pooh-Bah
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As an American I am all too painfully aware of how unmusical we are on this side of the pond compared with the British, the Irish and the Scots. What are some of your favorite British Isles expressions? Here are some of mine:
"Thanks, luv." (spoken by the female porter on the 19 bus in London)
"Right!" exclamation, sounds like "roit!"
"You're mad!"
"You can't be serious!"
"Oh Jesus!" Irish, sounds like "Oh Jaysus!"
"Good evening, and welcome to 'Masterpiece Theatre.'" Deeply imbedded in my synapses from youth.
"You bastard!" John Cleese as irate chef in restaurant
"Terribly sorry!" mumbled by a banker who has inadvertently stepped on your toe
"Sod this!" don't say it in front of the Queen
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Respectfully submitted:
"What ho, Jeeves?"
"In the year that King Uzziah died ..."
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*nothing* beats the sincere, arduously well-pronounced and melodious way the jamaican people say "you are welcome".
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As an American I am all too painfully aware of how unmusical we are on this side of the pond Perhaps in the clarity of pronunciation the Brits we hear on imported radio and TV programs have an edge. But there are parts of England I visited where the English is hard to understand at best and incoherent at its worst. I found some Scots accents quite sexy but I met just a few Scots at a party. Irish accent can be musical (Kildare) high pitched (Kerry) broad and flat (Cork) or very hard to understand (Galway.) Barry Fitgerald who played Michaeleen in "The Quiet Man" had a west Ireland accent. While here in US of A I have heard some delicious Southern accents, rugged western accents and the Indiana accent of my late husband was enough to raise goose bumps! To my ear, "upper class" British accents, in some cases, lack any vestage of what could be called warmth. For an example send a private, ok? So, I guess I take a friendly, poking the Borax, kind of umbrage.  wow
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It's totally subjective and hardly worth arguing about! 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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Pooh-Bah
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Who's arguing?
I know what wow is talking about with the Socttish accents. Some of them are impossible to decipher. In a pub in northern Scotland, an older man accosted me and kept asking me something that I couldn't understand. I felt embarassed to have to keep saying "What?", and it didn't help matters that the fellow looked rather...irate. Finally his words became clear to me. He was asking "Are ye a German, lad?" To which I replied, "No sir I'm an American." Instantly his face blossomed into a smile and he clapped me on the back and said "Ah, you're a Yank are ye!" I got the impression that a "German lad" wouldn't have been very welcome in that particular pub.
It wasn't the only time I was mistaken for a German. In a train station I was accosted by a pan handler, and I stared at him blankly until he said half to himself "Oh, you're German! You don't understand a word I'm saying!" and walked off.
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Has anyone else in N. America seen this as a supposed pronunciation of Brit-speak? My British friend had no idea what I was talking about, and says no one there says the word 'very' that way. I believe that, wherever I read it, it was attributed to the upper class.
Hi, Alex.
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Jackie, I think it's related to the "tara" thang (hi, Jo!): we interpret the Brit flapped R to be either the voiced or unvoiced alveolar plosive (D or T) and hear "ta-ta"
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Ta-ta and tara (pronounced more like turrah) are both used in the UK, although I associate tara mainly with the NE and London. There was a radio programme (I don't rember it myself) called TTFN -- Tata For Now.
Bingley
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old hand
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there's always 'toodle-loo'
some of my other Brit favourites are
Crikey!
to be knackered
to take the mickey
and the timeless..
Tickity-Boo
(I'm sure the Brits will offer translations on demand)
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stranger
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Hi - this is my first post but thought it was about time (seeing as I'm a Brit...)
Crikey - (polite) surprise
To be knackered (rhyming slang - cream crackered) to be very tired
To take the mickey - to mock someone. "Are you taking the mickey?"
Tickity-boo. This means fine, OK. "Everything is just tickety-boo".
Bye for now...Oswas
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veteran
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One of my favorites/favourites:
"A reading from the book of the Prophet Isaiah"
(the penultimate syllable in the prophet's name being pronounced "eye") Don't know why Brits and American have different pronunciations for this. Do you?
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"Naughty" has to be one of the funniest words ever. "Hugh Grant was arrested for being very naughty on the Sunset Strip."
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Don't know why Brits and American have different pronunciations for this. Do you?
Not sure, but I think it is because God pronounces it eye-z-EYE-yuh.
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I love the Jamaican accent...
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God pronounces it eye-z-EYE-yuh.British or American accent, Father? 
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God pronounces it eye-z-EYE-yuh.British or American accent, Father? Neither. As CapK notes in his bio, the land he and I inhabit is called Godzone, so the correct answer is ZILD!
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In that all civilised persons know that God is a proper English gentleman, He speaks only with an upper-crust British accent, of course.
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I felt embarassed to have to keep saying "What?", and it didn't help matters that the fellow looked rather...irate.
I know that feeling well -- being embarrassed, that is. When I moved from Southern Ontario (Canada) to Louisiana, it was months before I could listen through a conversation without a "Pardon?". It didn't help that our phone number used to be for the state Wage and Labor division (and still passed around by clueless departments). Loved those upset phone calls at two in the morning...
New Orleans accents were about as easy as they got for me. They actually have an almost Bostonian ring to how they speak. No idea how that came about, but it is one of my favorite of the southern accents.
In my opinion, though, nothing can beat a nice, mellow irish accent.
Ali
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journeyman
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Crikey - (polite) surprise
It's interesting how some words/slang just wouldn't be right when said without the proper accent. If I heard something like "crickey" out of the mouth of one my neighbors, I would think I'd misheard what he was really trying to say.
I'd love to know more Brit speak, slang. (Or any region's slang, for that matter). I'm pretty new to the AWAD, so if it's come up before, I haven't come across it. Maybe something for a new thread? Or private mail me if you've got a list... I'd enjoy it.
Ali
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I'd love to know more Brit speak, slang. (Or any region's slang, for that matter). That reminds me... i use the slang term "bloody" quite often, though i'm not exactly sure where i picked it up. is it considered offensive in england, or elsewhere? my usage of it is always as an adjective (eg: i couldn't get the bloody lock open), usually to convey mild disdain or frustration. i *never* swear, so i hope it's not a really "bad" word  .
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That reminds me... i use the slang term "bloody" quite often, though i'm not exactly sure where i picked it up. is it considered offensive in england, or elsewhere?
The impression I've gotten was that "blood" was like saying "damn", so it depends on the person. And "bloomin" is to "bloody" what "darn" is to "damn". I'm not a brit, though, so maybe someone else will correct me?
Ali
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On a scale of 1 to 10 with drat getting a 1 and fuck getting a 10, I'd give bloody a 3. Hope that helps.
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old hand
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>I'd give bloody a 3
Surely bloody used to be far worse though. At least according to 'My Fair Lady' is was.
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Oh yes-- bloody and bleedin' always got a "Language!" admonishment in our household-- where for shit and fuck, a "really, must you use those words?"-- I think for a long time, my mother didn't recognise "shit"-- the irish say it almost like "shite"-- and i think she though we where using the equiviant to "darn" for "damn"
but most "4 letter" words where okay-- but blasphemy was not-- the first three commandment were obeyed in our household--- most of the remaining seven too, but not like the first three.--
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In reply to:
Surely bloody used to be far worse though. At least according to 'My Fair Lady' is was.
Certainly, it was. In the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language David Crystal reproduces the shock horror newspaper reports on the first performance of Pygmalion (George Bernard Shaw's play, which was the source for My Fair Lady). I can't give you the page no. because I'm at work and the book's at home but YCLIU easily enough.
Bingley
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"Bugger" is a very mild expletive here and in the Strine. It's so versatile. You can say "Well, that's a bit of a bugger!" when something goes wrong, or "Bugger!" if something surprises you, or "buggeeer!" if you are annoyed or "Bugger me!" in both situations. There is a Toyota ad here in which "Bugger!" and "Bugger me!" are the nearly the only words used - by the farmer, the farmer's wife and the farmer's dog. And there's another ad where a 5-year-old girl uses it when her shoes are splashed by a car.
It has, I must emphasise, completely lost any sexual deviancy connotations it ever had. Most youngsters these days wouldn't even know that it had ever meant anything else.
And we're damned hypocritical about these words and their usage anyway. Just lately I've noticed an almost complete break down of the inhibitions about using "fuck" in front of women. This is mostly because women tend to use it themselves in mixed company without any self-consciousness at all. Effectively, this word which still offends so many is losing/has lost its sexual connotations as well. Other words have taken over that role. In a documentary on TV the other day about a well-known New Zealand actor, one of the interviewees was telling the story about a bus breaking down, the driver disappearing under the vehicle for a look-see and emerging to announce "Well, the fuckin' fucker's fucked!". Where's the sex in that? I shall, however, treasure its succinct, to-the-point clarity for ever!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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old hand
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Back on the British accent bit, I've always taken a strange shine to the "fook" pronunciation... somehow makes "fuck" sound less offensive. [shrug]
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And we're damned hypocritical about these words and their usage anyway. Just lately I've noticed an almost complete break down of the inhibitions about using "fuck" in front of women. This is mostly because women tend to use it themselves in mixed company without any self-consciousness at all.
*wow*. that's certainly not the case here in the States, at least not the part i'm from. if a woman in mixed company should utter that word in any situation other than perhaps an off-color joke (and said with the appropriate blush), i'd think the host should've taken more care with the guest list.
we have one male friend who makes compulsive and liberal use of that word, and i tolerate it because i must and because i've known him just short of forever. however, if a new acquaintance used that word capriciously in my presence, i'd be offended.
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that's certainly not the case here in the States, at least not the part i'm from.
I realise that. America's innate conservatism is easily discerned here, where we get Australian, British and American TV in roughly equal proportions.
As for managing guest lists, the women I hear the use of obscenities from most are not necessarily on mine, but work around me ... highly educated (in some respects) but, as my dear old mum, who's dead at the moment would say, they weren't brought up, they were dragged up backwards through a gorse bush.
Although I've probably mentioned it before, you have to realise that women's lib got taken very seriously here in Zild and with a few exceptions on that malleable list of general demands which libbers failed to burn along with their bras, has succeeded. That includes, apparently, the right to say exactly what they want to say and to say it exactly how they want to say it!
Really, though, it goes much deeper than just language, it's the philosophy of life behind the language. Most of the women in their twenties who work for our company are the daughters of women who are my age. Those women imparted the 60's/70's female ideology to their kids with perhaps predictable results.
For a lot of my female contemporaries, it was an attitude adopted to make a point, for their daughters it's just normal behaviour. Where once only men prowled the bars looking for one-night stands, women have not only taken up the hobby but are quite comfortable announcing to all within earshot that that is their intention. One female colleague from a few years ago announced then that when she wanted a child, she'd find a suitable father and has since just done that - but she never intended that the relationship should extend beyond the donation of sperm, and it didn't.
And the luxury of being able to take this attitude stems from their high disposable incomes. In Zild, women professionals negotiate and receive salaries at the same level as men. They often expect to have their babies and within a month or two return to work. Or, as in one rather memorable case at our firm, intend to stay home permanently but get bored and come back to work within a couple of WEEKS. Babies are minded by grandmothers, nannies or creches. The incidence of fathers giving up work and staying home to do the child-rearing in on the increase as well.
The skills some of these women have are such that most firms, including mine, subsidise creche care and expect that mum will just pop out to feed Junior. One creche in central Wellington is apparently chock full with the offspring of IT professionals. The mothers, who are from different and often competing firms, network and, oh, dear!
So there has been some "defeminisation". The female professionals work hard and play hard, with or without the men. They work in the same high pressure environments and suffer the same kinds of frustration that their male counterparts do. The rest, as they say, is history!
[/rant]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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i'd be offended
For me the offensiveness of that term depending on the situation. In business or faith related arenas it's very bad, but in bars it has to be tolerated. I have a girlfriend who uses it all the time I have to be very careful of my speech for days after time spent with her, she's a bank vice president even being at work doesn't stop her. On the other hand I've seen the most foul mouth of the customers of the one places I drink in self edit because my mom or other senior ladies were there. Not so for the Dad's.
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If you want a choice example from today, ask me privately! I wouldn't repeat it on the board ... 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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This round's on me. The next one too!
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When I really thought about it for the first time, I realized that using "fuck you" as an insult is actually very misogynistic -- equating being on the receiving end of intercourse as being inferior. So I've tried to quit using it that way. Fucking is too much fun to turn into a power struggle!
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"Although I've probably mentioned it before, you have to realise that women's lib got taken very seriously here in Zild and with a few exceptions on that malleable list of general demands which libbers failed to burn along with their bras, has succeeded. That includes, apparently, the right to say exactly what they want to say and to say it exactly how they want to say it!"
I do not regard female free use of the "f... word" as progress. I guess I am so used to girls behaving better than us boys, that I don't enjoy their uncritical use of new found freedom. They may well be more comfortable being down from the pedestal they were formerly expected to occupy, but the base of the pedestal was not in the gutter.
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I do not regard female free use of the "f... word" as progress. I guess I am so used to girls behaving better than us boys, that I don't enjoy their uncritical use of new found freedom. They may well be more comfortable being down from the pedestal they were formerly expected to occupy, but the base of the pedestal was not in the gutter.Sorry Bill, it's far too late to do anything except to lie back and think of England ... + [Diving-for-cover-from Jackie emoticon]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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C.K., I'm finally getting around to a more thought-out reply. You clearly recognize and accept that women are in
fact equally capable, and just as deserving of rewards for their efforts. This is one of the many reasons I admire you.
Your comment on the generations reminded me of a statement that I can only paraphrase, having not only forgotten the exact words, but the source, whom I think is a black female:
Wearing heels, I stride through doors that were pushed open by my grandmother crawling barefoot. (The ref. to high-heeled shoes being to something that only high-level-job people wear.)
You said that women in NZ say what they want to , however they want to, and do things like announce that they have gone to bars looking for one-night stands. I believe I picked up a hint that you disapprove of this, and I also have the feeling that you disapprove of men doing this. (If I am wrong, feel free to correct me.) But based on that
belief, I will add that I agree that there is a time and a
place for crude language and behavior, and that most group settings, including work, is not one of them. In my opinion, this demonstrates one or more of the following:
the speaker doesn't know any better, which is really sad;
is demonstrating a lack of consideration for others, as though they are thinking, "My words offend you? Too bad for you, sucker!"; the speaker believes/hopes this usage will demonstrate the allegation that they are something they really aren't--similar to the effect young teens are trying to give by smoking.
There is nothing derogatory in demonstrating that one has been taught good manners, and uses them. Good manners most
definitely involves consideration of others. If someone is
constantly flaunting their lack of good manners, this says
a great deal about them, and all around them know it--unless they are with people of like mind, in which case it
doesn't matter as much.
I have no problem with myself or others hearing and using
uncouth language to people who know us well--that is, those whom we know who will not be offended. But I am of the
irrevocable opinion that there are certain things that should, quite simply, be kept private.
Going down a side path for a moment: each of has different things that offend us. I have my own, unjustified set of things I take offense at: d-mn and h-ll don't bother me,
but I was raised that the b--t word for one's backside was a bad word, so I don't use that--I think it slipped out one
time; and I absolutely, never, ever, use that a-- word---I
can't abide it, I just can't. And while I'm ranting, I really don't care to know what kind of undergarments people wear, and I most especially do not want to know what kind of private activities people consider "fun".
This, I think, emphasizes all the more my earlier point about how important it is to have consideration for others,
and that if someone perseveres with behavior that they know offends someone, this tells a great deal about what they are like.
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In reply to:
I will add that I agree that there is a time and a
place for crude language and behavior, and that most group settings, including work, is not one of them. In my opinion, this demonstrates one or more of the following:
the speaker doesn't know any better, which is really sad;
is demonstrating a lack of consideration for others, as though they are thinking, "My words offend you? Too bad for you, sucker!"
Jackie, you have hit squarely upon it. A study of the use of vulgar language (I forget where I read it, but it was within the past year or two) in the US showed an inverted bell curve, when frequency of the language was plotted against the socio-economic-educational background of the speaker. Briefly, the higher or lower the station of the speaker, the more vulgar the language. Why? I think you have answered it - the lower-educated and employed neither know of the inappropriateness of the behavior, nor have anything to risk by its use, while the higher-stationed speaker knows he may spew bile with impunity, and does so to confirm his authority (like my former boss). I have observed in my own life that both handwriting deterioration and the use of vulgarity seem to directly correlate with years spent in higher education.
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>US showed an inverted bell curve, when frequency of the language was plotted against the socio-economic-educational background of the speaker. Briefly, the higher or lower the station of the speaker, the more vulgar the language.
I'd agree with this. I had a wide range of friends whilst at university and noticed that the "upper classes" swore like troopers and had no problem with "personal habits" that would be regarded with horror outside their social circle. That which was allowed "Upstairs" would not be countenanced "Downstairs".
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It appears these upper class "parvenus" have never heard of Noblesse oblige.
wow
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>parvenus
Definitely U. No arrivistes were they and they had read the works of the Mitfords.
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Dear jmh: It has been quite a while since I have seen the name Mitford in print, and my encyclopedia does not mention them. Tell me, is it just the rhyme that make me remember only something about "dim witty" Mitford?
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>Tell me, is it just the rhyme that make me remember only something about "dim witty" Mitford? I don't recognise the rhyme but I think that Nancy was definitely witty and some of the other Mitfords were definitely dim. Do you know which Mitford it refers too? I've added some information about the Mitfords in another thread as we may like to talk more generally about class and language. http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=18975
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I've been thinking about this. Is there a British accent?
I think the accents are so regional, Hebredian Scots would be very far removed from City Banker English.
When we travel abroad would we be recognised as British first or as Scottish, Welsh or English? Or just by elimination ie not from the USA, not from Australia, not from New Zealand etc.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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In my youth, a "British Accent" was that used by BBC announcers - anything else was a regional accent. But I don't think one could argue that case any more, as you say, Jo. I was going to say that it doesn't matter so much in the UK, and that it is only people "abroad" who might wonder about a "British" accent. But in fact, the more multi-cultural this island becomes, the more one is aware of "foreign" accents being used.
For me, the question is, When does somebodies accent, which they gained in their country of origin, or from parents from off-island, become a "British Regional" accent? For instance, I don't think of the accent of people from the Indian sub-continent or the Carribean as "foreign" but as "regional" (or perhaps as "cultural") But mt Jugoslavian neighbours, who had lived in England for nearly thirty years, definitely had a "foreign" accent.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>When does somebodies accent, which they gained in their country of origin, or from parents from off-island, become a "British Regional" accent? For instance, I don't think of the accent of people from the Indian sub-continent or the Carribean as "foreign" but as "regional" (or perhaps as "cultural") But mt Jugoslavian neighbours, who had lived in England for nearly thirty years, definitely had a "foreign" accent.
I noticed earlier that someone mentioned Jamaican. I was going to say that the first words that my daughter heard when she was born in a London hospital was "doesn't she look like her daddy" said in warm, musical London-Jamaican accent by the midwife.
I think sounding "foreign" has more to do with words that are slightly mis-pronounced in the way that someone would if their first language is not English. Several of my friends have parents who moved here from Poland and their parents still sound "foreign".
There are now a number of people whose parents were born in India or Pakistan and who have very defined Northern English or Scottish accents. A good example is seen in the film "East is East". I'm still slightly thrown by this (yet know that I shouldn't be) as most of my friends with families from the Indian Subcontinent have (rather posh) Southern English accents. I suppose that this is part of the problem with racism. A person with Polish parents has a Lancashire accent and no-one can tell where they came from.
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Pooh-Bah
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Speaking for myself and those I know in the Great Lakes area of the US, upon hearing a British accent, I will immediately classify it as Irish, Scottish, Welsh, or English. If the accent is "English," I will subclassify it if the accent is one of the better known ones, such as cockney or Liverpudlian. And, if the accent is that speaking-through-clenched-teeth accent of the upper crust, I might subconsciously ascribe class to the speaker. One thing I've learned in recent years is that the class distinctions in Britain are much more prominent than they are around here, and I get the idea that the accent says a lot more about one's station in life in Britain than it does in Michigan.
The single biggest distinction I can think of regarding speech patterns in this area is the use of the double negative. When middle and upper class Michiganians hear, "I ain't got no ...," the status of the speaker is immediately fixed.
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old hand
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It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man, with a respectable fortune, finds coitus fun. It need not be mentioned, since it is taken for granted in his case (and more and more so in the case of women too), but it may be worth while, from time to time, reminding ourselves of why we so often make the beast with two backs, violating our so-closely-guarded personal space and lack of desire of intimate personal contact: we wouldn't want our children to think we're ashamed of this activity, surely? Jackie says: I agree that there is a time and a place for crude language and behavior, and that most group settings, including work, is not one of them. In my opinion, this demonstrates one or more of the following: the speaker doesn't know any better, which is really sad; is demonstrating a lack of consideration for others, as though they are thinking, "My words offend you? Too bad for you, sucker!"; the speaker believes/hopes this usage will demonstrate the allegation that they are something they really aren't--similar to the effect young teens are trying to give by smoking.In deconstructionist mode (oh, go on, indulge my pretensions, please) I thought I'd treat this text as an example. The use of the phrase 'crude language' instantly alerts the close reader to the idea that lurking behind the denotative patina of words is a strong connotation of judgement. The words are crude why? Here one is compelled to take a contextual stance. They are surely neither less euphonious than other words, they are often far more onomatopoeic, and their spelling is neither more nor less Byzantine than that of words with far greater respectability in the English language. Are they, perhaps, then sacrilegious words? Are any gods, or religions, being referred to when the act of coitus is described in four-letter form (a word of ancient and respectable provenance, as far as we can tell)? Again, this is unlikely - there are few if any gods whose names, in English, are rendered as the acronym of 'for unlawful carnal knowledge'. Vide our discussion regarding the pleasures of the flesh (above) it seems unlikely that this word refers to anything shameful either. So whence the crudity? The answer must lie purely in social context. The word is a shibboleth - a marker of distinction between one group and another. If one uses the word one is either in a very peculiar circumstance (of great stress or inebriation) or one comes from a group whose use of the word signifies some failing of mind in them (misogyny, lack of education, lack of aesthetic sensitivity, lack of social skills - you take your pick, mix'n'match). In such a context, given the liberal nature of political correctness today (respect all cultures, do not discriminate against those with different practices and beliefs from your own, etc) can we justify the superiority of attitude inherent in the practice of describing a word as ''rude'' or bad mannered? Surely such judgements always redound upon the judge - as one who may not have expanded the compass of his or her tolerance sufficiently to accept differential speech practices of other groups? This could, from being a purely linguistic analysis, expand to become one concerning the entire issue of liberalism, tolerance, political correctness and the like, but for this Board, perhaps thus far and no further should suffice. cheer the sunshine (in defence of f ucking) warrior
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Carpal Tunnel
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My sweet shanks, you said: can we justify the superiority of attitude inherent in the practice of describing a word as ''rude'' or bad mannered? Surely such judgements always redound upon the judge - as one who may not have expanded the compass of his or her tolerance sufficiently to accept differential speech practices of other groups?
This could, from being a purely linguistic analysis, expand to become one concerning the entire issue of liberalism, tolerance, political correctness and the like, but for this Board, perhaps thus far and no further should suffice.My dear sir, I don't believe that I said that that I don't accept the "differential speech practices of other groups". I meant only to indicate that I do not like them, a very different thing indeed. There are many things in my life that I accept while not liking them. If possible, I remove myself from the environs of such. Perhaps I failed to make my main point adequately. I believe that the primary consideration for what is "crude" or not should be based on consideration for others' sensibilities. If I take offense at the floweriest of speeches, it then becomes crude. And if having consideration for others makes me "superior" to those who don't, why then, I must say that I think the adjective is justified. A large helping of Dixie raspberries to you, sir!
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Oh dear... the sweet taste of Dixie raspberries! [grin] My dear As a personal issue, of course, I feel you have every right to have and hold an opinion, even, if you wish to take it so far, to remove yourself from situations in which your taste is dissed. But one must presume, therefore, that even in the lush Southern orchards of various berries, this is distinct from making a moral judgement about such people? And therefore this is not a political issue for you? Yours, in panting anticipation the sunshine (common as muck - but "I washed my hands before I come I did") warrior
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Pooh-Bah
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>The answer must lie purely in social context. The word is a shibboleth - a marker of distinction between one group and another. If one uses the word one is either in a very peculiar circumstance (of great stress or inebriation) or one comes from a group whose use of the word signifies some failing of mind in them (misogyny, lack of education, lack of aesthetic sensitivity, lack of social skills - you take your pick, mix'n'match).
Perhaps it is deep in our psyche that warning signals are set up by different types of behaviour. If someone behaves in an agressive way then we decide between fight and flight. Is it some kind of throwback that some of us have such a strong, almost physical, reaction to someone using a word in a non-agressive, even when it has virtually no contextual meaning?
When people use the word as merely an intensifier, instead of "very" as in "we had a f-in' good time" all they are saying to the world is "look at me, I'm breaking the rules"? In some places there is a strong reaction to that, in others, it is barely noticed.
I get a strong impression from the people who have posted that there is big difference in sensitivity to such language between the USA and Britain/New Zealand/Australia, especially amongst younger people. I'm still left wondering why.
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Carpal Tunnel
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shanks, you're making me blush! And for no just cause! I know exactly what you are up to, sir! Will you ever be corriged??? You said, this is distinct from making a moral judgement about such people? And therefore this is not a political issue for you?Dam' straight. Who am I to tell other people how to act? Nobody, that's who! But I can choose what I want to be around.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Although I reject the theological beliefs of my Puritan ancestors totally, I am only partially divorced from their strong prohibitions against obscenities. To me they are simply extremely bad taste in mixed company, and tiresome even in males only groups. They add absolutely nothing to any discussion, and mostly indicate inability to use acceptable language effectively. I am guilty of obscenities all too often, and am not proud of it.Moderation in all things is still my motto.
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I get a strong impression from the people who have posted that there is big difference in sensitivity to such language between the USA and Britain/New Zealand/Australia, especially amongst younger people. I'm still left wondering why.
I think "younger people" will grow out of it. I certainly swore a blue streak in high school. I used to like to point out the irony that I'd learned to swear in Catholic school. But then I just sort of stopped, and now I don't swear much, unless I'm extremely steamed. People seem to view others who swear a lot in everyday conversation as somewhat childish, or showing a lack of command of language to convey feelings. It also shows (as someone else mentioned) a lack of respect for others' sensibilities. So I guess I just kind of stopped, not wanting to be viewed by my mostly older friends as (1) childish, (2) inept with language, and (3) insensitive.
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Jackie O'Hara suggests:
"But I can choose what I want to be around. And anyway, tomorrow is another day! Humph." (And in the background, Loo'ville is silhouetted against the burning skies of Atlanta, as she tosses her windblown auburn hair {do we care that it may be a wig} to show her contempt for that nasty Sherman - really, he can't be a gentleman if he has to win his battles using twice as many men as the poor brave Southerners - Lafitte, Butler, Lee et al.)
Frankly, m'dear, since you have brought up the topic, you have exercised your indubitable right to free speech in explaining your contempt for this verbal register (characterised by you as crude, or mayhap vulgar, 'swearing', rude, childish and the like) - and in doing so have you not therefore made it acceptable for those of opposing opinions (personal though they may be - just like yours) to exemplify their contrariwise attitudes by deliberately saying "I don't give a {gliding coitus, airborne sexual intercourse, soaring carnal knowledge, oh, go on then, we'll use the wussy euphemism} Dutch edam?"
Less convolutedly - could it be construed as offensive to 'innocent' users of such phrases that you might choose to animadvert about it in public - particularly if you brand them childish, know-nothings, rudesbys and so on?
And as an aside, an ass is a thing that Jesus rides in triumph, not a swear word. What you're thinking of is the derivation from Chaucer's wonderful ers (vide "The Miller's Tale", concerning Alisoun's actions in response to Absolon's nocturnal wooing), and, as any good Anglic person knows, is spelled, and pronounced, A-R-S-E. A word of impeccable pedigree, and so much more robust than the Bowdlerian derriere or just plain nauseating: patootiie, behind, bottom etc. If it's good enough for Chaucer and Shakespeare, it's good enough for me.
Yours in ineffably delicious tension in anticipation of your retaliatory effusions...
the sunshine warrior
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Carpal Tunnel
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Careful, Shanks, how you posture,lest you get what Nicholas got.
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Carpal Tunnel
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>When middle and upper class Michiganians hear, "I ain't got no ...," the status of the speaker is immediately fixed.
I suspect that you don;t have to be middle or upper class Michiganian to assess the class or lack thereof of such a speaker :)
TEd
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Carpal Tunnel
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And as an aside, an ass is a thing that Jesus rides in triumph, not a swear word. What you're thinking of is the derivation from Chaucer's wonderful ers (vide "The Miller's Tale", concerning Alisoun's actions in response to Absolon's nocturnal wooing), and, as any good Anglic person knows, is spelled, and pronounced, A-R-S-E.
So ... triumph means an arse on an ass in Britain, an ass on a donkey in the States and [note the Mandarin-like smile :-)] an ass on an ass in New Zealand. Sounds about right, really!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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