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Today on my matutinal two mile hike around the block, I saw an Hispanic lady raking the gutter in front of her apartment. Without stopping to think that she might be unable to understand, I gave her the gesture made by both hands clasped above head level, intended to mean "Well done" which I think had its origin in umpire raising boxer's hand in his, to signify he was the victor. Fortunately the Hispanic lady appeared to understand, and gave me a beatific smile.
It occurred to me that there are a lot of gestures that used to be common, that I have not seen for a long time.
For one, a whittling motion of one index finger against the other to mean "shame on you." No idea how it originated.
It has been a long time since I saw one kid thumb his nose at another,or stick his tongue out at another.
There remains one other gesture of insolent defiance which I need not describe as it is all too prevalent.
I hope some of you may be able to remember others and post comments.
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Here's an example of a "false friend" hand gesture: The American gesture for OK (thumb and forefinger forming a circle) is as obscene/insulting in Brazil as the extended middle finger is here (and elsewhere).
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Speaking of being lost in the translation, years ago i worked in the airline supply industry, and was assigned to Qantas, Ansett, Air New Zealand and such. Once when i was pleading with a buyer to forgive an avoidably late delivery, i asked him to "cut me some slack". He informed me that where he came from (can't remember now if he was Zild or Aussie) that meant...  .... to copulate. Was he pulling my leg?? (oh, dear, don't tell me that one has multiple entendres as well....)
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Oh what a bit of serendipity! Last week's Economist had a review of a new translation of a book first published in 1769 -- in italian Gesture in Naple and Gestures in Classical Antiquity by Andrea de Jorio -translated by Adam Kendon. indiana University Press $49.95.
Here in NY hand and body gesture are still taken seriously You can give someone a "digital salute" or the bird-- or you can put one fist into the joint of your elbow and raise the other fist up, with knuckles facing out. the meaning is the same. the review illustates a gesture the hand as fist, with the thumb poking out between the index and middle finger -- as the Economist notes-- an sexual insult! I seen it used (but not lately) In fact, i knew 4 of the ten gesture they in review! the meaning are slightly modified..
An open hand, with fingers slightly splayed-- and the thumb touching the index indicates "amore" in the 1769 guide-- but i would read it as "you are beautiful (or sexy-- but not in a slutty way)" Or maybe " i love how you look" and the fingers bunched together, with the thumb touching them- according to the guide "asking" but i read it as "listen" (this last one is commonly used in "italian" movies like the "godfather") and a closed hand with the thumb rubbing against the index finger--(a move similar to "snapping ones fingers" but softer, slower)" money".. just how i would use it or read it.
Of course NY has a large italian population, and my childhood home was only a few blocks from Arther Avenue-- the Little Italy of the Bronx-- but i think all but the first have been seen in movies like the godfather--
and the thumb under the chin, and index finger crooked, pulling on one's chin-- does everyone know that as "just kidding" or "in jest"?
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Ledasdottir offers: put one fist into the joint of your elbow and raise the other fist up, with knuckles facing out
This is very similar to the ASL gesture meaning "Good Morning", particularly if you add the opening of the hand at the end of the former gesture.
Fiorello LaGuardia grew up speaking English, Italian and Yiddish. It has been reported that you could tell from silent movies (probably non-voice over newsreels) of him giving speeches what language he was speaking by the hand gestures he used.
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yes-- i have heard that about the little flower--
Herman Badillo-- who is PR, but hung out with italians can also "speak in two languages" and when he first ran for office in the Bronx "won" over large parts of the italian population by having his name intentionaly mispronounced as Ba dillo (to rhym with Brillo) and used italian gestures. Now his name is alway pronounced as ba deho which is as close as NYer's get to the spanish pronounciation.
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>i asked him to "cut me some slack". He informed me that where he came from (can't remember now if he was Zild or Aussie) that meant... .... to copulate. Was he pulling my leg?? Bridget96, I can't speak for all Aussies, and I wouldn't dare do it for the K-one-W-ones, but I've only ever heard the expression used in the context you intended - to give me a chance to do something, to give me breathing space. I'm struggling to understand how it could mean anything to do with copulation, but then again I've led a very sheltered life. About the only other meaning that I could construe for "cut me some slack" would be an order to a tailor for a trouser. 
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There is some confusion as to the difference between the Hawaiian hand greeting -- the Shaka -- and the American Sign Language "I love you" used as a general greeting.
The ASL gesture is palm outward with thumb, first finger and little finger upright and other two folded into the palm.
It is always done that way ... palm toward the other person.
The Shaka starts with the palm towards you and just the thumb and little finger upright, the other fingers folded into the palm. The back of the hand toward other person.
Now, the shaka has infinite variations and many meanings, some with palm out, some with different motions and is best left to those who know the variations, until you have learned! Pretty easy to pick up with close observation.
Aloha
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The simple "thumbs up" has had an interesting evolution for me, from "OK" (images here of Allied pilots during WW2) to "get f*" (or was that just schoolboy misunderstanding of which finger to use?) and back to "OK" again.
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He informed me that where he came from (can't remember now if he was Zild or Aussie) that meant... .... to copulate.Marty would not dare presume to speak for K1W1s, but my overwheening self-absorption means that I have no qualms about doing so. I have never heard "cut me some slack" used to mean anything other than the definition you are familiar with, nor "pull my leg", though I'm sure our West Island neighbours could create some off-colour ovine reference for K1W1-baiting, their national religion.  
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>K1W1-baiting, their national religion.
Very neat, Max. In the space of an hour or two today we've covered sex (here), politics (Oz compulsory voting over in Q&A>Epuration) and now religion.
So much for taboos.
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so much for taboosBring 'em on!
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Bring 'em on!
Okay Max, Marty and all other antipodeans (plus imports), a couple I heard the other day that were new:
—New Zealanders know that "Tie Me Kangaroo Down" is really an Australian love song.
—Australians think that the New Zealand national anthem is "Baaaa-bara-Ann"
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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I recognize, but do not normally use, nearly all the gestures mentioned so far. Others include: (1) the extension of the first and middle finger into a "V" - held aloft, meaning peace in the 1960s and 70s, and meaning victory at other times; or held behind another's head, signifying stupidity; (2) extending the first and pinky fingers, with the remaining fingers folded, used as an insult or to impose a curse; (3) holding the fingers together as a unit and moving them rapidly up and down from the thumb, indicating that someone is speaking incessantly or annoyingly; (4) describing a circle with a first finger at one's temple, to indicate a belief that another suffers insanity; (5) stroking a nonexistent beard to indicate contemplation; (6) rubbing the tips of the thumb and first finger together, with minute movements, palm up, to imitate playing The Worlds Smallest Violin as an expression of false sympathy; (7) holding the hand, palm forward, with first and middle fingers together, apart from ring and pinky, also together, in the mighty Vulcan salute;(8) slapping the flat extended hand of another as an expression of approval; (9) thumb pointed down, as an expression of disapproval; and (10) thumb extended horizontally to solicit a ride at roadside.
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wow contributes, regarding the ASL for "I love you": The ASL gesture is palm outward with thumb, first finger and little finger upright and other two folded into the palm.
This is by way of being an acronym. It is a bind rune combining the letters I, the extended little finger, L, the thumb and forefinger and Y, the extended thumb and little finger.
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>>(4) describing a circle with a first finger at one's temple, to indicate a belief that another suffers insanity
the only ASL gesture i know is a variation of this-- If you fold down all your fingers except the pinkie, and they use your thumb to point to the first joint (top of the finger) this is ASL for a little or very little. If you now use your pinking to make circle at the temple, (standard crazy sign) you get a little crazy-- or wacky-- not as insulting and could be complimentary--
(some one was talking about me...)
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How about just holding hands in front of you palms forward saying "stop" whatever you are doing? Also moving extended hand in circular motion, saying wind it up!
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Another...pointing forefinger at someone (with other fingers folded into palm) and shaking finger...saying "whoa" or "that's enough"!
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My mom was initially confused by the Italian version of "come here". It's done with a DOWNWARD scooping motion; that is, palm downward, outstreched arm, then move it toward your own belly with palm still downward. (Like pulling poker chips toward yourself, palm down.) When repeated more than once, it always looked like "go away" to her. I think the outward motion required to "reset" the movement was the part she responded to, rather than the bringing-in part. Being mostly brought up in Canada myself, I would be inclined to agree.
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Bean,
That's also the Brazilian gesture for "come here." I wonder if it's southern European in general? (Juan Maria, ¿donde andas?)
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In reply to:
(1) the extension of the first and middle finger into a "V" - held aloft, meaning peace in the 1960s and 70s, and meaning victory at other times; or held behind another's head, signifying stupidity;
Be careful with this one in the UK and possibly other places. With the palm outward it is as Sparteye says, but with the palm inward towards yourself it is similar to the US extended middle finger.
Some Indonesian gestures. One similar to the namaste means I'm sorry. The higher the hands the deeper the apology. An extended middle finger moved diagonally across the temples means crazy. To gesture come here, hold your arm out horizontally but with a slight crook of the elbow and with the fingers extended and the palm facing downwards. Bring all the fingers up towards the palm several times in fairly rapid succession.
When I was teaching Japanese students I noticed that their "who? Me?" gesture was to point at their nose rather than their chest.
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Some of these gestures are really ancient and enshrined in literature. Dante, in Inferno, has a character defying God by holding up his hands both showing il fico, which is making a loose fist with the thumb between the index and middle fingers, top of the thumb sticking out. This is an obviously obscene gesture. In the opening scene of Romeo and Juliet, Shakespeare has the following dialogue between the servants of the Capulets and those of the Montagues: "Do you bite your thumb at me, sir?" "I do bite my thumb, sir." This refers to the gesture of making a fist, thumb raised and extended and flicking the thumb under the upper teeth at someone, and is a gesture of contempt.
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RE: "One similar to the namaste means I'm sorry. The higher the hands the deeper the apology."
What is "namaste"?
I have been told that the British gesture analagous to the middle finger, that is raising two fingers upward in a reverse peace sign or V (i.e. with the fingernails toward the recipient) comes from the time of longbows and England's war with France. As I was told, the English became very proficient with their longbows to the point that they were devastating weapons against the French. When the French would capture English archers as prisoners of war, they would cut off their first two fingers so they could no longer use their bows. Those English with all ten digits took to raising their fingers on the battlefield as a gesture of contempt and to remind the French that they were about to receive a volley of well-aimed arrows.
My favorite sign language word is the sign for "b*llsh*t," as depicted in the film "Children of a Lesser God," but it is hard to describe.
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Yes, the book i mentioned back on page 1-- the one printed in 1769-- the auther premise was that art work illustrated on classic greek urn, used hand gestures-- and the people of naples -- greek for new city-- still used the same hand gestures. So some of them are old-- and "biting your thumb" I know, and have use that one.
I realize i use very few hand gestures now in commuication-- but i used many when i was younger, living in the bronx, and often communicating with people who did not have english as first language. I could read and use many italian gestures-- I interacted more with italians (some are cousins, and in school) I know few yidish or jewish hand gestures-- since i had less personal contact. While my mother had jewish friends, most of my friendships were formed from schoolmates, and i went to a catholic school. (my defination of friend here would be someone not only welcome in your house, but familiar enough to help themselves to a "cuppa"-- and would know where the tea, sugar and tea pot could be found) i would never use hand gestures with adults-- they would require formal treatment-- All of my parents friend were addressed as Mr. or Mrs., never by first name.
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Alex mentions: My favorite sign language word is the sign for "b*llsh*t," as depicted in the film "Children of a Lesser God," but it is hard to describe.
Lessee kin I give it a try:
One arm held in front of body with the forearm horizontal across the body at about mid chest level hand in a fist palm down with fore and little fingers extended; representing the horns of the bull. Other arm immediately below first arm in the same configuration with the fist of the latter under the elbow of the former and the elbow of the latter under the fist of the former. The fingers are not initially extended. Rapidly open fist of lower hand; representing the stercorem of the bull. Contemptuous sneer on face. Mouth "Yeah, right" or words to that effect.
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making a loose fist with the thumb between the index and middle fingers, top of the thumb sticking outThis is a "t"in finger spelling used by the deaf. http://dww.deafworldweb.org/asl/abc/az.htmlThe gestures are pictured. In ASL if you waggle the fist while making the gesture it means "toilet." Along with a questioning look it may mean "Where is the Ladies' or Men's room?" wow
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yes-- almost-- in the insulting version-- you would hold your finger towards you, and have the knuckles facing out. Like the V for victory or the double digital salute of the English-(see previous posts)- its meaning can change depending on which way your hand faces! One way is an insult-- the other way is a letter or a statement or a question!
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Cross your fingers for luck.
Combination of having both hands horizontally out at chest level, palms up, fingers spread, elbows close to body and shrug - to mean I don`t know.
Has anybody else ever seen swiping the hand at the neck quickly and repeatedly in a horizontal motion to mean - urgent cut it short or shut up?
Impatience is really conveyed by drumming your fingers.
And where did the wave originate? The sideways flutter like if you are washing your windows wave. Or the same type of hand flutter with your palm towards your body, in an up and down motion to signify "that was a close one."
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I am crossing my fingers and hoping someone will tell me what "namaste" means.
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alex, you might find this site 'enlightening': http://church-of-the-east.org/spirituality/namaste.htm briefly, namaste is a traditional hindu greeting meaning "i bow to the divine in you" The Sanskrit 'Namas' is defined as "bow, obeisance, reverential salutation.", and is derived from the root Nam, which carries meanings of bending, bowing, humbly submitting and becoming silent. "Te" means "to you", therefore "namaste" means "I bow to you." BTW, it is pronounced "namasthay" (and i'm not taking credit for any of this; i was curious as well and googlized it. not quite a YCLIU, though, since it was arguably hard to find) cheers =)
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briefly, namaste is a traditional hindu greeting meaning "i bow to the divine in you"
In my dealings with immigrants from the subcontinent, I have found that namaste seems to have become universal among them, regardless of their religious affiliation. Where I live, most Indians are either Sikh or Muslim, but namaste still elicits a familiar smile and reciprocation from them. My use of it started as an affectation years ago, inspired by the fact that my father was born and raised in India, but is now entrenched and based on the beauty, elegance and defererence of the gesture. In a town where Indians have been the victims of some hateful crimes, it also helps put them at ease. I wonder if the website's spelling it "namasthay" was meant to indicate that the "t" in "namaste" should be pronounced as an English "th", as in "the", or "thing"? If so, I have definitely learned something today, as I have never heard it pronounced that way.
Salaam
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I wonder how the middle finger display came to be called "the bird". In the thirties there was a raucous noise called a "Bronx cheer" made with the mouth, but sounding like loud flatus,which was also called a "razzoo" or a bird.I think it died out because of the retort, "now do one with your mouth!" Another bit of repartee from that period was to call someone a ziegus, alleging that they blew their nose on toilet paper, because their face looked so much like their ass, their bowels did not know which way to run. It was a period of obvious taste and refinement.
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Dear bridget96: thanks for the link on "namaste" it was good reading something uplifting on Sunday. Bill Hunt
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Combination of having both hands horizontally out at chest level, palms up, fingers spread, elbows close to body and shrug - to mean I don`t know.
Has anybody else ever seen swiping the hand at the neck quickly and repeatedly in a horizontal motion to mean - urgent cut it short or shut up?Have you ever noticed that in English there is also a specific series of notes which mean "I don't know" when hummed? You might use it If, for example, your mouth is full and you don't want to get French fries all over the person who is asking you something. Of course the absolute pitch varies but you might write it Low-High-Middle, the same notes as saying "I don't know". As for the cut it short or shut up thing - yes, it's a good one. Best done toward your buddy, as they talk to someone else (who can't see you), and your friend is about to put their foot in their mouth, that sort of thing. Vivid facial expressions help, too!
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Yup, I don't know can be perfectly said without uttering a word.
My son does that ALL THE TIME [insert heavily frustrated emoticon here]. I will be glad when he is out of his mumbly stage and ARTICULATES.
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I will be glad when he is out of his mumbly stage and ARTICULATES.... but what will he articulate, and will you then wish he adopted a civilized mumble?
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In another thread it was stated that some psychiatric patients could tell when speakers were being insincere even when sound track could not be heard, or something of that sort. Meaning that body language can contradict words when we pay attention to it.
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that body language can contradict words when we pay attention to it.
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A good example of this is how important facial expression and body language is to people who are deaf and who use American Sign Language, and its variations country-to-country.
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American Sign Language, and its variations country-to-country.
What an intriguing statement. It almost sounds like ASL is the parent of all sign languages, which I'm not sure I can agree with. I have several friends who sign and they find ASL very different from both Aus and NZ SL. One major difference is the extent to which finger spelling is used. Aus and NZ SL make very limited use of finger spelling, while it seems to be quite common in ASL. Then you have something like Nicaraguan Sign Language, which is a fascinating story in its own right.
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It almost sounds like ASL is the parent of all sign languages, which I'm not sure I can agree with.
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Oh, Dear Max ... not my intention at all. I MEANT that there are many variations of gestural sign language around the world.
NOT that ASL was the daddy of them all ... I worded it badly. Forgive?
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I know very little about ASL-- a word or two here or there... but there is a good site.. http://www.aslinfo.com/aboutasl.htmlit give a history of sign languages... of which ASL is just one, (and not the oldest) .
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Forgive?Apology accepted, though totally unnecessary. I took absolutely no offence,and posted simply to seek clarification. I don't sign, and have been jokingly told by several signers that they hate me, meaning that they dislike my public speaking intensely, as my rapid speaking and fondness for long words makes translating quite difficult. ASL's fondness for one-handed finger spelling would actually suit me were I to sign, as it would not require me to use my almost non-functional right hand, so I certainly have no beef against ASL. I mentioned Nicaraguan SL because I once saw a fascinating documentary about it, and the unique opportunity it has presented to study the evolution of language in general. The last comment I shall make about signing was an amusing anecdote related from an international sporting fixture held in Christchurch, NZ. One of those assigned to greet delegates as they stepped off their buses was signing a welcome in NZSL (I assume), unaware that to some of the delegates the phrase she was signing meant something along the lines of "voulez vous coucher avec moi", which I suspect was rather more welcoming than had been her intent!
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In improvisational Jazz, the slashing of the throat gesture means "stop playing" or "last time through" and a tap on the head means go to the "beginning of the song" or the "head"(pretty obvious, huh). However, holding up crossed fingers means "go to the Bridge or B-section" and drawing a couple of circles straight up in the air means "keep repeating"... any similarities?
We also would call out key centers by "how many fingers up = x number of sharps key and how many fingers down = x number of flats key. Of course the key of "C" (no sharps or flats) was a big "C" shaped hand.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 116
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 116 |
Some of you, by now, have discovered that I live in Israel, and I can tell you that if you don't use hand gestures when talking here, you'll NEVER be 'heard' or understood! The good news is, if you feel comfortable using your hands while talking, you can usually be understood even without speaking either Hebrew or Arabic (or Russian or Yiddish or Hungarian or German or Farsi or French or Ladino or Spanish or Portuguese or Italian or Japanese or Afrikaans or Hindi or any number of other languages or dialects...)! But the BEST one, by far, is the same as that Italian one - except you basically put all your fingers and thumb together and shake it at the other person - usually when driving, you do this out the window to indicate that you want the other person to stop and let you do some incredibly stupid thing like park extremely crooked on the sidewalk (or pavement, depending on your own brand of English) or back up for three blocks or back down the one way street so you are headed in the proper direction even if the car is moving in the wrong direction or you want to turn into a street or parking spot that three or four others are already waiting for.... I think you get the point by now! Oh, and while you are shaking your hand in this configuration, you MUST, at the same time, shout in a loud and basically obnoxious voice, "rega, rega, rega" - at least three times just to make sure everyone for three or four blocks around has heard you... oh, it means 'wait' or 'moment' (as in 'just a moment') or any number of similar instructions!  There is one more that I have found extremely useful here - and it can be used all over the Middle East and probably in most of the other Mediterranean countries as well. When someone asks you a question that you don't know or simply don't want to answer, just do this: shrug your shoulders with your arms half extended and your palms up (in a sort of helpless gesture) and make a facial expression by pursing your lips, slightly closing your eyes, tilt your head slightly to one side and then, while in this form, make a slight smacking noise with your mouth... and then just turn and walk away...works every time!
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