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#192378 - 08/11/10 03:30 AM Re: Drumlin [Re: beck123]  
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TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Well, yes, they were absolved.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36104206/
A similar report on this side of the Atlantic also cleared Dr. Mann.

Quotes out of context aren't much use for determining facts. "Tricks" are very common in science circles and there's a lot of peer-reviewed science papers that have that word in the title. A big deal was also made about the "redefining peer review to exclude two articles." However, those articles were included in the final report, despite the fact that at least one of them was highly suspicious (a review article that misrepresented the findings of other papers, e.g.).

Cattiness among scientists - yes. Misrepresentation of the facts - no.

Scientists do not claim that C02 is the only factor in global warming. http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54#p/u/8/w5hs4KVeiAU
( P -> Q ) =/=> ( P -> Q )

Part of the problem is that urban legends get reported in the blogosphere and suddenly lots of people are repeating them when they aren't true.
http://www.grist.org/article/volcanoes-emit-more-co2-than-humans

For most scientists, the science is independent of the politics. For the political types, it seems they start with their assumption that government interference is bad and then work backwards to filter out any 'science' that doesn't result in problems solvable by that solution.

The bastion of liberalism the Jasons warned of global warming 3 decades ago:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4690900.ece

They don't know everything, but I think scientists understand the basic chemistry and thermodynamic properties of C02 pretty well.




Last edited by TheFallibleFiend; 08/11/10 03:35 AM.
#192379 - 08/11/10 08:12 AM Re: Drumlin [Re: RayButler]  
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BranShea Offline
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Originally Posted By: RayButler
And a prediction: "esker" is going to be one of this week's words.
Well guessed!

With CO2 reduction people seem to always justify their own comportment by comparing themselves to those who behave worse (volcanoes or Trucks and SUVs, heavy industry. So I transmit Anu's Thought for this Day frome a favorite poet.

"Oh, threats of hell and hopes of paradise! / One thing at least is certain -- this life flies; / One thing is certain, and the rest is lies; / The flower that once has blown forever dies." -Omar Khayyam, poet, mathematician, philosopher, astronomer, and physician (1048-1131)

#192380 - 08/11/10 09:33 AM Re: Drumlin [Re: beck123]  
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Originally Posted By: beck123

Speaking of Iceland, perhaps the CO2 belching from their longships was what warmed the world of the Vikings enough to allow them to settle and prosper on the shores of Greenland a thousand years ago.

Somebody noted that Long Island is a [terminal] glacial moraine. Ten or so thousand years ago, native Americans could see a wall of ice a mile high at the Island's north shore. I don't believe that Shinnecock SUVs made that melt all the way back to the arctic ice cap.


Ah, the old "climate changed in the past, so what's different now?" argument. What is definitely different now is the vastly accelerated rate of change. There are natural cycles of cold and warm periods, but nothing in the records (ice cores, tree rings, fossil deposits etc.) indicates anything like the pace of change we've seen in a single century or even 50 years. You don't need SUVs to explain the changes millennia ago to Long Island or Iceland, but you do need SUVs (and everything else we do) to explain what's going on now.

I am a scientist by profession; not a climate scientist but an astronomer. I cannot claim personal expertise on this topic but here's what I do claim: the scientific method works. If tens of thousands of scientists around the globe studying this area have formulated a consensus backed up by data, while a few hundred take the opposing view, I will trust the majority, because I trust the scientific method. And so should the citizenry of the world, because it is the only objective process they can trust in a matter like this.

Originally Posted By: beck123

This issue is most definitely a matter of politics. People like myself don't deny that the temperature is changing; we simply don't believe that giving more money to the government and allowing them to curtail our liberty will make the temperature stop changing.


Your liberty is curtailed in all sorts of ways already, for good reasons. You do not have liberty to murder your neighbour, or rape his wife, or poison his children's food and water. All that's changing now is a realisation that we don't have liberty to pollute the atmosphere that we all must share, any more than we have liberty to pollute the municipal water supply that we all must share.

"Government" has nothing to do with it. What you perceive as inalienable "liberties" are not being curtailed to appease some leftist lobby in Washington (I am assuming you are American by the clues you've left); they are being curtailed so that statistically, over time, fewer people will suffer and die in a climate characterised by extreme weather like the present Pakistani floods. Or maybe you don't care about their lives and liberties?

#192381 - 08/11/10 09:40 AM Re: Drumlin [Re: BranShea]  
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RayButler Offline
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Originally Posted By: BranShea
Originally Posted By: RayButler
And a prediction: "esker" is going to be one of this week's words.
Well guessed!


I'm basking here in the glorious success of my prediction. Basking, I tell you. grin

#192385 - 08/11/10 03:28 PM Re: Drumlin [Re: RayButler]  
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BranShea Offline
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Bask on RB, bask and don't get burned, baked or fried. So what will it be tomorrow ? Corries?

#192393 - 08/11/10 06:42 PM Re: Drumlin [Re: BranShea]  
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kah454 Offline
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Scientific method is the way to go. They evidence is plain to see if one just looks. Yes we need to care about what is going on elsewhere. All in all well said RB.

Corries-- saw a lot of these up north in Alaska and sometimes when they thaw in the summer there are magnificent watefalls.

I'm not sure if Corrie is the correct word for some glacial lakes and ponds that were left on Long Island as their initial sides are not steep but some are deep however.

#192398 - 08/11/10 08:52 PM Re: Drumlin [Re: kah454]  
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BranShea Offline
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corries
I always like these image pages for a quick view of what it's all about.

The world will outlive us. I don't think we will kill it. We will kill ourselves before. Like Easter Island people.
(Just to add something cheerful to the discussion)

Last edited by BranShea; 08/11/10 08:53 PM.
#192401 - 08/11/10 09:45 PM Re: Drumlin [Re: RayButler]  
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beck123 Offline
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@ RB:

We are straying far from "drumlin," aren't we? The liberties you say I've already lost are not liberties at all, but unconscionable license that has never been approved at any time in any stable society. Those are not the liberties I claim, and I think you know that.

I'm a scientist, too, with a doctoral degree and some 40 years of experience, so I know the value of the scientific method. Your assumption is that it is being applied in a perfectly objective way to a scientific issue that, if correct, will quickly move the way we are governed in the direction of the political philosophy that is held by the overwhelming majority of academic scientists. It doesn't pass the smell test for me. The same gambit was tried a few decades ago with global cooling. Read the dire drumbeat in every issue of SCIENCE or even SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN from that era.

You also haven't addressed how giving more money and authority to the government or "tranferring" it to the Third World will stop the change in temperature. It will certainly accomplish many of the goals of socialism, but it will not affect the temperature at all.


"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
#192403 - 08/11/10 10:13 PM Re: Drumlin [Re: beck123]  
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TheFallibleFiend Offline
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I don't know about Scientific American. I don't even think it's peer-reviewed. But among scientists, global cooling was never a drumbeat.

http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54#p/search/0/EU_AtHkB4Ms

And I'm not a scientist.

#192410 - 08/12/10 02:07 AM Re: Drumlin [Re: TheFallibleFiend]  
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beck123 Offline
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SciAm is not peer reviewed to the best of my knowledge, hence the "even" modifier in my post. It's authors are, however, recognized experts in the fields about which they write. They write about the state of science (in their fields) for informed laypersons. Its editorials and columnists are, especially today, entirely politicized and all in the same direction.


"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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