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Am I the only one who finds those pronunciation guides to often be wildly inaccurate?
According to this one, the "a" in "ass-" is pronounced exactly the same as the "e" in "-er-".
Not even RP-indoctrinated BBC newsreaders would pronounce it this way.
All I know is, I have nevuhr fallen on my uhss while skating.
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That's why dictionaries and folks talking about pronunciation ought to use the IPA ( link), though the latter often fight its adoption. The first a in asseverate is a schwa /ə/ ( link). I have observed that most ad hoc pronunciation "systems" in the States use uh (as did Garu) to represent this sound, but in the UK they use er. This sometimes leads to confusion.
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A skater on this board and one that never fell. Wow!
While jumping from one shwa-link to another I came across the words dialect-sociolect-idiolect. Interesting.
Then half way down a schwa-blog from a schwa specialist I ventured to read the last line. There was his final conclusion:
"I suspect that we will not have a satisfying theory of schwa untill we have a satisfying Theory of Everything."
I decided to skipp the second half of the article untill they have.
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I have observed that most ad hoc pronunciation "systems" in the States use uh (as did Garu) to represent this sound, but in the UK they use er. This sometimes leads to confusion. Terry Gross ran an old interview with Lynn Redgrave on Fresh Air today. In it Ms. Redgrave recounts how her father used to constantly correct her intrusive Rs in such words as "sawr" as in "I sawr a bird today." This is a fairly common feature of many non-rhotic dialects. My thought was that the intrusive Rs were just making up for all the Rs that were left out. See the above example, which would have been pronounced something like "I sawr a behd today."
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Or "I sawr a behd turday."
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Or "I sawr a behd turday." Well, there you go. Are you pronouncing that R in turday or is it just a marker indicating some alteration of the pronunciation of the O in today? Some marker incomprehensible to us rhoticists.
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"I sawr a behd turday."
That would be a Scouse accent...especially if by "behd" (bayyyyyd...drag it out for about 4 seconds) you mean "bird". Recall John Lennon in the Beatles' "Day in the Life": "I sawr a film turday, oh boy,...".
So is this schwa stuff telling us that the same /ə/ symbol is used for entirely different vowels? That's kinda confusing, is it not?
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So is this schwa stuff telling us that the same /ə/ symbol is used for entirely different vowels? That's kinda confusing, is it not?
No. A schwa is a schwa. It's the other "systems" that can be confusing and ambiguous. I was just saying that the same sound in UK and American General English is represented in two different ways, the former with er and the latter with uh. (The most famous example of this is in Winnie the Pooh where the reader is admonished that it is not "Winnie thge Pooh", but "Winnie ther Pooh". Most folks from rhotic dialects end up pronouncing the second ther as /ðə/, when the author clearly had in mind the second of two possible pronunciations of the, i.e., /ði:/ and /ðə/.
Are you saying that you do not pronounce the first a in asseverate as a schwa? What do you pronounce it as? FWIW, the OED online gives the pronunciation (in IPA) as /ə'sɛvreɪt/. The first syllable is clearly a schwa.
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I do pronounce it as a schwa - that's if the definition in the link you gave me has any real utility: "like the 'a' in about".
Problem is, how I/we pronounce the schwa 'a' in "about" might not be the same as how you or anyone else does. Nothing can be trusted when it's merely represented as a textual character, a symbol or schwa definition. You have to hear an actual spoken sound before you can truly say, "yes, that's how I pronounce it too".
For example, if something was defined as: "like the 'ou' in about", Canadians would read this completely differently to the rest of us. South ("Syth") Dubliners would read it differently again.
Our "schwa a" is a very flat, somewhat extended ah, verging on aah; you have to momentarily widen your mouth, as if into a smile or grimace, to say it. It's not a posh, round-mouthed aw, nor a dropped-chin doctor's "ahh", not a grunted uh, not a clipped o'h, not a rhotic ar, not eh, not er, nor any other of dozens of other permutations. But here I am, trying to _describe_ it to you; it's almost futile. If I had training in the dictionary sybolism you use, I might succeed, but anyway I'm still not convinced that the sybolism has standardised sound correspondence.
I think that what we can do, at least, is be critical of cases where very different sounds are assigned the same pronunciation guide sound: that's why I started this thread. However hard it is to pin down these sounds, we can at least agree that they are not the same as each other!
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I find it interesting that there are many regional variations that surround the schwa. But intrusive "R's" make me crazy. I used to live in Washington DC. There is something that happens to people who have been there a long time. People gradually add the letter "R" after the "a" so people are pronouncing it Warsh-ing-ton. Just listen to american television commentators who are based there.
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Our "schwa a" is a very flat, somewhat extended ah, verging on aah; you have to momentarily widen your mouth, as if into a smile or grimace, to say it. It's not a posh, round-mouthed aw, nor a dropped-chin doctor's "ahh", not a grunted uh, not a clipped o'h, not a rhotic ar, not eh, not er, nor any other of dozens of other permutations. But here I am, trying to _describe_ it to you; it's almost futile. If I had training in the dictionary sybolism you use, I might succeed, but anyway I'm still not convinced that the sybolism has standardised sound correspondence.
Ah, well, you are entitled to your opinions, of course, as am I, but the IPA has been used for quite some time by linguists and phonologists to represent how folks pronounce words in their languages and dialects, and it does a damned fine job of it. What with your non-IPA transcriptions of various kinds of schwas, I must admit I would have to hear you say them to tell you whether any or all of them are different nuanced pronunciations of a schwa or some other vowels. There are diacritics that can be added to most of the glyphs in the IPA to fine-tune the pronunciations. After that spectrograms can be used if finer gradations are needed.
The IPA is not a mere dictionary symbolism, it is a way to accurately represent the varying sounds of different languages and it does a good job at that. It's better than ad hoc pronunciation guides based on the erratic spelling 'system" of English or any other language. It's not perfect, but somebody who knows some phonology (articulatory and acoustic) and the IPA can give and get a good idea of how words would be pronounced in various languages and dialects.
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For example, if something was defined as: "like the 'ou' in about", Canadians would read this completely differently to the rest of us. South ("Syth") Dubliners would read it differently again.
That's exactly what the IPA can do. The "ou" in Canadian "about" is [ʌw]. In American it's [aw].
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not wanting to appear *too doggedly inflexible, but how is this (use of different symbols in IPA) better than any other system, as long as all the symbology is defined?
(with my old desk dictionary I could look on the bottom of the page and at least get some idea of the pronunciation.. just try that with IPA!)
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how is this (use of different symbols in IPA) better than any other system, as long as all the symbology is defined?
The symbols are defined by place and manner of articulation (i.e., how the sound is produced in the vocal tract). The IPA was designed from the beginning to include sounds that do not occur in English. The sounds are not really defined by reference to English (or any other single language's) sounds. IPA developed out of some other early attempts at devising a phonological transcription system. It was developed by people who spent a lot of time and effort in devising a rational system that could be used to transcribe the sounds of any language that a linguist ran across and felt a need to write down. The system does not have any of the conservative features that most orthographies exhibit when sound and symbol diverge over the course of time.
The idea of defining sounds by place (and to some extent) manner of articulation was not an invention of 19th and 20th century European linguists. Ancient Indian grammarians had come up with a similar phonological system 9with different symbols about 2500 years ago. (Actually the symbols came much later; the first descriptions were oral.)
(with my old desk dictionary I could look on the bottom of the page and at least get some idea of the pronunciation. just try that with IPA!)
Where the older, more ad hoc systems break down, is that they only refer to words in the target language. Not all people, speaking regional dialects have the same pronunciation. For example, there are folks in the States who do not pronounce the h in whether[/i] and some who do not differentiate the vowels in pin and pen. You pretty much have to learn any writing system, and as I have suggested before, the symbols needed to transcribe most varieties of English are around 40 or 50, and most of them look like their non-IPA counterparts. Where the IPA is necessarily complicated is in its rendition of vowels. There are more than five (six) vowels in English. A bunch of sounds traditionally called vowels are actually diphthongs or triphthongs. My major problem with most traditional dictionary pronunciation guides is that they differ from dictionary to dictionary. IPA is a standard.
I suppose I shall never convince you. So be it.
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oh, I understand the need, and I see why a linguist would love it. but it just seems awfully arcane* to us rustics out here in the hinterland.
*as in the runes of the Elder Futhark, e.g. : )
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I just know that it is better to buy language phrase books locally. Otherwise hints like "pronounced as the u in tube" will not be helpful.
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So then, the IPA seems to cover all the tonal possibilities and regional variations. Thanks for explaining it.
But - back to my original gripe - where does that leave AWAD's "uh-SEV-uh-rayt" and its ilk? Who played god and decided that these sounds were identical "uh"s? And for which region are these pronunciations valid?
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Who played god and decided that these sounds were identical "uh"s? And for which region are these pronunciations valid?
You'd have to ask Mr Garg, and he does not read this board postings. But, my guess is he either adapted it from some dictionary or kind of made it up on his own. The IPA evokes such negative responses from most people, that most popular words folks fall back upon faulty transcriptions methods. and systems.
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>that most popular words folks fall back upon faulty transcriptions methods. and systems.
I take exception to that! I don't have a particular method, much less system; I just got tired of folks complaining about the lack of a pronunciation guide. (but then, I'm not that popular, anyways.)
I've tried using the OED as a guide, but they use that darn IPA notation. I s'pose you could call my method/system ad hoc. : )
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But - back to my original gripe - where does that leave AWAD's "uh-SEV-uh-rayt" and its ilk? Who played god and decided that these sounds were identical "uh"s? And for which region are these pronunciations valid?
this is (at least) the second time around at AWAD for 'asseverate', to wit: Date: Fri Apr 14 00:19:02 EDT 1995
Subject: A.Word.A.Day--asseverate
X-Bonus: Death has been proven to be 99 per cent fatal in laboratory rats.
as.sev.er.ate \*-'sev-*-.ra_-t\ vb : to assert earnestly
-- as.sev.er.a.tion \-.sev-*-'ra_--sh*n\ nso, he was using '*' for schwa? I think his current method is better..
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And then there is that little microphone.
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I've tried using the OED as a guide, but they use that darn IPA notation.
Funny. The IPA is no less or more arbitrary than the ad hoc systems. If you can take the time to learn one of those, you can learn the IPA. The real problem I have with the those other systems is that they're based on pronunciations in words, and as we all know many words differ in pronunciation from region to region. But you are free to use your system. It's just that I won't be very much helped by it.
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so, he was using '*' for schwa?
I've also seen apostrophe used for schwa.
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And then there is that little microphone.
If one cannot be bothered to learn a descent phonetic alphabet, one can hardly be imagined to have the time to plug in a microphone and record one's voice ...
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>It's just that I won't be very much helped by it.
the thing that (secretly) amuses me is that many of the obscure words that I feature haven't actually been spoken since.. oh, the Great Vowel Shift maybe?!
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many of the obscure words that I feature haven't actually been spoken since.. oh, the Great Vowel Shift maybe?!
Yes, there are many things that amuse me in these inkhorn dictionaries. A friend of mine who did graduate studies in Egyptology, once smirkingly told me that one professor at UCLA insisted on his Hieroglyphic Egyptian students going to the language lab a couple of times a week to listen to tapes of reconstructed Ancient Egyptian phonology.
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@ tsuwm many of the obscure words that I feature haven't actually been spoken since.. oh, the Great Vowel Shift maybe?!
fr. OF sembler, to resemble] /SEM bluh bul/
archaic : 1) having a resemblance: suchlike
2) seeming; apparent
It is a wonderfull thing to see the semblable
Coherence of his men's spirits, and his."
In those days it may still have been French , so not /SEM bluh bul/ but /SAHM blàh blu / .
@zmejhzd If one cannot be bothered to learn a descent phonetic alphabet, one can hardly be imagined to have the time to plug in a microphone and record one's voice ...
To me it's easier to do the microphone thing than to unravel the phonology symbols. But of course you still have one person pronouncing who might be a sociolectic or and idiolectic.
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It's nice that IPA defines its symbols by where they are pronounced in the mouth, but for most of us who are not phoneticians that's of no practical help at all. Great. So ʌ is an open-mid back unrounded vowel. How do I make my mouth do that?
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It's nice that IPA defines its symbols by where they are pronounced in the mouth, but for most of us who are not phoneticians that's of no practical help at all. Great. So ʌ is an open-mid back unrounded vowel. How do I make my mouth do that? yes, you surely need to be a trained phonetician. is that a redundancy? good, then — I think this is one of those instances that really begs for one.
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you surely need to be a trained phonetician
I learned all about phonetics, phonology, and the IPA in a 3-unit, 10-week undergraduate course at university. It was nowhere near the toughest course I've taken within my linguistics major or without.
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I had some training in the IPA at Conservatory.
sadly don't remember much of it now...
formerly known as etaoin...
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I had some training in the IPA at Conservatory.
I studied the shakuhachi (Japanese bamboo flute) for a couple of years, but the lessons never really took. I can still make a sound on it, but its not something I'd like to do with another person around. The best part of it for me was learning the traditoinal music notation system for it (it was based on katakana). The system is only used for shakuhachi music. Most modern pieces are written in standard Western notation these days.
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you surely need to be a trained phonetician I learned all about phonetics, phonology, and the IPA in a 3-unit, 10-week undergraduate course at university. It was nowhere near the toughest course I've taken within my linguistics major or without. Great. So it's easy to be a trained phonetician. If you've got a phonetician training center handy. And if you think you should need to take a training course to be able to read a dictionary.
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So ʌ is an open-mid back unrounded vowel. How do I make my mouth do that? The vowel chart lists each sound as a "diaphoneme" - that is a symbol that is not specific to any dialect - and then lists the pronunciation in each dialect.
Last edited by goofy; 05/08/10 11:37 AM.
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OOF! I get so dizzy looking at that chart. All these reversed and upsidedownied symbols. Something you must learn while young. Salto's, bungy jumping, rodeo riding.
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So it's easy to be a trained phoneticianI still think you can do it without taking a class. There are plenty of podcast lectures and a bunch of MP3 files, etc. The OED uses the IPA for its pronunciation guide. English has about 40 phonemes. Take a look at the charts on this page. 8 of the 24 consonants don't occur in our alphabet. I'd say you know at least 4 of them. Of the fourteen monophthong vowels, four are in our alphabet. We're talking about learning four consonants and ten vowels. And you already speak English. Look at those characters, listen to some MP3 files, and I'd say you can do it in an afternoon. Far less time than participation in this thread.
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I get so dizzy looking at that chart. All these reversed and upsidedownied symbols.
If you can learn to spell words in English (and French), you can learn not to be dizzy when looking at this chart. Think of it as a still life with glyphs.
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 Very well, a descent proposal: if you paint that still life I will do the glyphs.
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if you paint that still life I will do the glyphs.Sure, it's a deal. I went through a phase of painting (mainly watercolors and acrylics) back in the '80s of the previous century. Let me just say my paintings were less enjoyable than my shakuhachi playing. I guess I could use Photoshop, but that would be cheating.  I was inspired by a documentary I watched yesterday afternoon on Alfred Stieglitz and the artists he was associated with. Now for two of those words. Japanese shakuhachi is a length, 1.8 shaku 'foot' (actually 30.3 cm, 0.99 ft). (There are other sizes of bamboo flute.) I have always liked the term still-life, but I like the French term better, nature morte 'dead nature'.
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Still-life, nature morte. Never took notice of this difference, funny enough. I guess the English and Dutch chose the the more intimate point of vieuw, the French the more dramatic.
PS. Still life with bread and cheese or fruit can hardly be called "morte". ;~)
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> the thing that (secretly) amuses me is that many of the obscure words that I feature haven't actually been spoken since.. oh, the Great Vowel Shift maybe?! The Great Vowel Shift - you are referring to Glaswegian, no doubt? Pick a vowel, any vowel...they'll shift it somewhere you'll never expect it. For example, their i -> e shift causes no end of trouble. I was at a conference in Glasgow with a few younger colleagues a few years ago; one of the lads was trying to chat up a local lass in a very loud music bar. He suggested that she join us in a heavy rock club later that night. Her response initially enthralled him: he thought she said "I love to get up for sex in the morning". I've struck gold, thought he! She had actually said "I have to get up at six in the morning". Several confusing sentences later as his smooth moves were being perplexingly rebuffed, he realised too late he'd got it wrong...very wrong.
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The Great Vowel Shift - you are referring to Glaswegian, no doubt?
Nope, I don't think he was. He was referring to the one that took place between Middle English and Early Modern English. I was once the other half of a discussion in a club in Columb St Minor in the mid-'80s. The other half was a Glaswegian RAF NCO. His opening speech lasted nearly ten minutes and I could only identify one word, an oft-used expletive used as an intensifier.
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Speaking of dialects: the first person to correctly guess what word (in English--I heard that!) is pronounced eee-yuht wins a...what? Oh, I know: a case of Bollinger's. Come to my house tomorrow and I'll give it to you.
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idiot. (if I got it, I'll be there at eight.)
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Yet.
Edit: Lookin' up Bollinger's to see what I bring along to the party. Woo-woo!
Last edited by belMarduk; 05/11/10 04:49 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618 |
I'll vote for eyot, though it feels like the hog is getting dirtier this way.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 655
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In the South, in certain positions within the rhythm of a sentence: "it"
"Eee-yuht was guuud, Byebee."
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
Wait, wait, can I change my answer?
I think it is yacht - you know, the watercraft.
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Faldage wins! Yep, "it" is eee-yuht in Deep Kentuckian, and probably Deep Appalachian in other states as well. Our choir director is a retired teacher, and says that in one elementary school way down in the state, she heard a teacher down the hall carefully explaining to her class that this word has two syllables.
Em--I think Bollinger's is champagne. Dunno, it just sounded good. So--belM, maybe you could bring some cheese. Faldage, we'll need some fine crackers; beck, doc, tsuwm and olly...let's see. Oh! Music. Hmm...fruit? Ooh, maybe some of those teeny-tiny little pies... See y'all tomorrow!
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