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I am going to hear a speaker on this subject Saturday night. I know next to nothing about the subject; just that it was specially created as a common language for some area or other. Would any of you-all mind giving me a bit of background?
Last edited by Jackie; 02/21/10 04:35 AM.
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Wikipedia to the rescue. Since I assume you won't be bringing any axe to sharpen this should get you into the swing of things. I.e., the Wikipedia article should be reliable enough to get you started.
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During the Q&A, ask the lecturer about Ido ( link). To practice your Esperanto, you could look at the article in Vikipedio la libera enciklopedio ( link) on Ido.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I did what you said, and his response was different from what your link said, which was Ido was developed in the early 1900s, and retains a sizable following today, primarily in Europe. It is largely based on Esperanto, created by L. L. Zamenhof. Ido first appeared in 1907 as a result of a desire to reform perceived flaws in Esperanto He said Ido was created before Esperanto. Here's a link to the book he wrote about it: Nuessel
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Oh, I just thought of something else I asked him, and I'll ask you all too; there is no "right" answer, is what he said.
Realistically, given the global economy plus the vast increase in communications capabilities, should people just give up on Esperanto, and let English become "the" lingua franca?
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should people just give up on Esperanto, and let English become "the" lingua franca? I don't think that it is in anybody's (or any organisation's) power to decide this question. Why has English become a lingua franca? Probably mainly for non-linguistic reasons. And there are at least as many people who want to distinguish themselves by their particular language (seen as part of cultural identity), as there are who dream of easy global communication.
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He said Ido was created before Esperanto.As ido means 'offspring' in Esperanto and because I have read solid-matter books about auxiliary languages, I would have to disagree with the person you asked the question of. Maybe he was thinking of Volapük ( link), which did pre-date Esperanto. Therre is also a Volapük Wikipedia ( link). OTOH, he sounds more rationale than most of the Esperantistas I've run into over the decades.
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Realistically, given the global economy plus the vast increase in communications capabilities, should people just give up on Esperanto, and let English become "the" lingua franca?
Latin used to be the official language of a large part of the ancient western world, along Akkadian, Aramaic, Koine Greek, Persian, et al. at different times and in different locations. No doubt English will either morph into another language or be replaced by some other contender.
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Esperanto, why is it so very unattractive?
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why is it so very unattractive?
Not sure. It surely is not very pretty. My wife worked in Sweden way back when for a non-profit organization that used Esperanto for communication amongst its international employees. Most spoke English, even her French co-workers, and the consensus was that it was a butt-ugly lingo.
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So, it's a dasyproctian language? 
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I think esperanto is unappealing because of its contrived and inflexible nature. It's a test-tube language, whereas natural languages are exactly like living things: they evolve continuously, and there is no way anybody can stop it (good luck, France.) Nobody tells children to invent new slang; they do it because it's the natural thing to do. It is an imperative.
Words, phonemes, phrases, and the intellectual substance they represent are constantly being recyled, created and abandoned by speakers, communities and entire cultures. It's what gives human language (and probably the human species) its strength. All language is a mutt, and apparently with good reason, or it wouldn't be universally so.
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I don't know enough about Esperanto to gainsay you, but I would say that your objections would apply to any constructed international language. The only alternative would be for a language to be imposed through some sort of imperialism. Even that leads to variants that border on mutual unintelligibility. One of my job responsibilities is to copy-edit engineering reports, some of which are generated by native Mandarin speakers and passed to Indians (some of whom are from a Hindi-speaking area and some from a Tamil-speaking area) before they get to me. I get some interesting samples from time to time. As to inflexibility I would guess that there are likely many words in modern Esperanto that were coined since the time of its invention by Zamenhof. This would be more a function of the number of people who are using it in a day-to-day manner than due to its nature as a constructed language.
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Well, Esperanto is only a little over a century old, and (as far as I know) there are no native speakers. It is a written language. That has probably slowed down its rate of change. I do know that the suffix for forming country names has been deprecated. So, Russia and Germany today are Germanio and Rusio instead of Germanujo (country of German speakers) and Rusujo.
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Crosswords and cryptogram in Esperanto?
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Esperanto, why is it so very unattractive? - My hypothesis: language, like food, tends to raise suspicion if it looks "artificial".
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Words, phonemes, phrases, and the intellectual substance they represent are constantly being recyled, created and abandoned by speakers, communities and entire cultures. It's what gives human language (and probably the human species) its strength. All language is a mutt, and apparently with good reason, or it wouldn't be universally so.
It does not grow, from what I've understood. Made one time,
and left to sit.
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You're speaking of esperanto, no?
Esperanto is a plastic flower compared to the living bouquet comprised of our many varied and interconnected languages.
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your objections would apply to any constructed international language. The only alternative would be for a language to be imposed through some sort of imperialism. Even that leads to variants that border on mutual unintelligibility. Certainly they would apply. Imperial imposition of a common language has been tried - unsuccessfully - time and time again: China, Rome, the prohibition of some Native American tongues, etc. On a much smaller scale, my grandmother's parents imposed German on her and her siblings, and yet none of the children grew up understanding the German language (beyond the baby songs and curse words.) Language cannot be imposed on a people for any length of time. The natural changes that occur within populations that are not in constant, two-way communication add up until, as you say, the disparate populations are virtually unintelligible to one another. The language variants drift apart thanks to the accrual of thousands of small changes that are not transmitted from one group of speakers to another over time. So it doesn't really matter if the imposition is made by a tyrannical government, a group of intellectuals, or the head of a household. All are working against a human imperative: to speak in a way that serves one's individual needs. No one language or language form will ever do that for everyone. It's convincingly parallel to organic evolution in every way except the time scale.
Last edited by beck123; 02/24/10 12:19 AM.
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Esperanto is only a little over a century old, and (as far as I know) there are no native speakers. It is a written language. That has probably slowed down its rate of change. I'm going to challenge this idea by pointing to exactly what we are doing in this forum. We are using a written language - never spoken, even by the linguistically adventurous (try saying ":-)") - that is far less than a century old, and its rate of change is so rapid as to be astounding. The person who was creative enough to type the first emoticon is probably still among the living. Unless there was a tragic bus accident, the person who coined "emoticon" is still living. So it remains to be explained why this language, with no real rules, has caught on like wildfire; and esperanto languishes on the shelf. I offer that this language serves our individual needs and - most importantly - is created by its users, as are all viable languages.
Last edited by beck123; 02/24/10 12:21 AM.
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And I suppose the person who coined "glitch" at NASA is
probably still living as well: I have not forgotten.
My grandparents made their children learn English, not the
native European language.
Yet I was left handed at birth and forced to write with my
right hand. Different standards.
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Clearly, they didn't want sinister offspring. An additional benefit was realized in the fact that if you were unable to cut properly with scissors, you might be tempted to run with them.
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Imperial imposition of a common language has been tried - unsuccessfully - time and time again The population of Great Britain is overwhelmingly of British or Irish/Scottish stock. The language spoken by the vast majority of those people is a Germanic language imposed on them by a relatively small number of roughly fifth century invaders.
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One of my fellow attendees asked the guy what I thought was an interesting question: that, if Esperanto did become really widely used spoken, over a period of at least one whole generation, wouldn't it be likely that different pronunciations and then dialects would develop?
(So again, my question of why bother to keep promoting it?)
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Clearly, they didn't want sinister offspring. An additional benefit was realized in the fact that if you were unable to cut properly with scissors, you might be tempted to run with them. Which, it might surprise you, is exactly what they told me: "Don't run with scissors". I think of that whenever I pick up a pair and move away with them in my hand.
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I'm going to challenge this idea by pointing to exactly what we are doing in this forum.
Ah, yes, well, I suppose. The vast differences you speak (or type) of are lexical in nature. Most of them are not in the sense of absolutely new words, but rather of new meanings for words. Extensions as it were. In a word, metaphor. The fact that one can read Tom Jones or Tristam Shandy without too much trouble, except an occasionally trip to the dictionary (I am speaking of the grammar of the the language thereto) puts the lie to your assertion. But, heck, what do i know. Maybe you're right.
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Beck 123. So it remains to be explained why this language, with no real rules, has caught on like wildfire; and esperanto languishes on the shelf. I offer that this language serves our individual needs and - most importantly - is created by its users, as are all viable languages. Jackie. One of my fellow attendees asked the guy what I thought was an interesting question: that, if Esperanto did become really widely used spoken, over a period of at least one whole generation, wouldn't it be likely that different pronunciations and then dialects would develop?
(So again, my question of why bother to keep promoting it?) Esperanto was created as a language to serve an ideology. A neutral language to serve as a 'bridge' between all different peoples. Almost like a sect. A humanitarian one. Quote from a Dutch article: " This bridge-function shows itself a.o. in the international travel network of Eperantists with the title Pasporta Servo. This network allows Esperanto speakers to travel easy and at low costs to visit other Esperanto speakers all over the world. This gives a person who speaks Esp. the opportunity to learn the culture and habits throught meeting directly with fellow idealists." As an idea it is certainly well meant, but as a language this is where it maybe should limit itself to. What's the use of translating Shakespeare, Chaucer, Tolstoy, any great litterature to Esperanto, when all those great writers are translated into practically all languages of the world?
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What's the use of translating Shakespeare, Chaucer, Tolstoy, any great litterature to Esperanto, when all those great writers are translated into practically all languages of the world? For the same reason all the other languages have translated those texts, Cultural perspective. Ideas are sometimes translated more coherently in ones own lingo. Who's to say Esperanto doesn't generate it's own cultural Identity?
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Who can help on this? Where is Esperanto used specifically?
Anywhere?
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Imperial imposition of a common language has been tried - unsuccessfully - time and time again The population of Great Britain is overwhelmingly of British or Irish/Scottish stock. The language spoken by the vast majority of those people is a Germanic language imposed on them by a relatively small number of roughly fifth century invaders. I think that "British," "Irish," and "Scottish" is what they are today. The stocks that created these groups were many and varied, the major ones being Celts (particularly Brytthonic Celts, for whom Britain is named), Picts in the north, Romans, Saxons, and, finally, a tremendous influx of Norsemen. The venerable Battle of Hastings, was, in fact, a battle between two Viking nobles, and Dublin was founded by Vikings about 1100 years ago. Much of Modern English comes from Old French, so I don't really see where there was ever a language imposed on the entire British Isles. In the Roman-to-Viking era, nobody - nobody - ever conquered the Picts, for example, and I don't doubt that Pictish can be heard in modern Scottish dialects, from where it has probably influenced Modern English. The same is true for the western reaches of Ireland.
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The fact that one can read Tom Jones or Tristam Shandy without too much trouble, except an occasional trip to the dictionary (I am speaking of the grammar of the the language thereto) puts the lie to your assertion. Informed readers today have the advantage of having experienced 250-year-old (and newer, and older) English. We can see the connection across the centuries through the intermediates we've experienced. I'd be curious to see how well a reader from Fielding's era - the middle of the 18th Century - would cope with a Michael Crichton novel. Agreed that the underlying grammar has changed but little, but the poor fellow would be lost when it came to virtually every other aspect of the language he'd find there.
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but the poor fellow would be lost when it came to virtually every other aspect of the language he'd find there.
Moreso from the style of writing and the concepts of this age I'd say.
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Sure. Our modern language serves our modern needs. We actively change it to serve our needs, and that's the whole point behind my opinion of why esperanto is a failure as a general language: it is imposed upon us.
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my opinion of why esperanto is a failure as a general language: it is imposed upon us. Hey--you just might be on to something there, IMHO.
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The fact that one can read Tom Jones or Tristam Shandy without too much trouble Which I am, to my surprise, able to do with A Clockwork Orange . But I see that for some reason, Burgess' absolutely new words haven't become common... "Malenky"; "ptista", etc.: 
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What's the use of translating Shakespeare, Chaucer, Tolstoy, any great litterature to Esperanto, when all those great writers are translated into practically all languages of the world? For the same reason all the other languages have translated those texts, Cultural perspective. Ideas are sometimes translated more coherently in ones own lingo. Who's to say Esperanto doesn't generate it's own cultural Identity? I suppose it does. But it seems so limited in spite of this effort to create a language accessible to everyone.
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Imperial imposition of a common language has been tried - unsuccessfully - time and time again The population of Great Britain is overwhelmingly of British or Irish/Scottish stock. The language spoken by the vast majority of those people is a Germanic language imposed on them by a relatively small number of roughly fifth century invaders. Spanish, French, Italian, Catalan, Portuguese, Romanian, Rhaeto-Romansch, all languages descended from Latin and spoken by people who are not, largely, the descendants of Romans. This Latin was imposed on them by the Roman Empire. If Esperanto is ever "imposed" on anyone it will be by voluntary vote of the people on whom it is imposed not by imperial conquest by the dread armies of Esperantujo.
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dread armies of Esperantujo.
The signs in the TV series Red Dwarf are in Esperanto. Those dread armies got into space.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Putting Latin as being 'imposed' on the countries you name seems a little too simple. I guess it was learned as second language, much like most parts of the world learn English in our days.
Then it developed into Italian itself like into French, Spanish etc. and Latin was kept intact in Church and in scientific language .(more or less like this) The essence of Esperanto is its strive for peace.But.
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Putting Latin as being 'imposed' on the countries you name seems a little too simple. I guess it was learned as second language, much like most parts of the world learn English in our days. It may have started as a second language, but it certainly supplanted any native language as a mother tongue. It wouldn't have gotten there without the imperial ambitions of the Roman state.
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"Esperanto" sung to the tune of "Desperado".
formerly known as etaoin...
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Sure. Our modern language serves our modern needs. We actively change it to serve our needs, and that's the whole point behind my opinion of why esperanto is a failure as a general language: it is imposed upon us. And there's no nation of Esperantus where one can go and meet hot Esperanta women, hence no incentive to learn the language.
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You have hit the nail right on the head. However, there probably will be Esperanto gambling and porno web sites in our near future. It's the Esperantistas' only hope to escape linguistic oblivion
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"Esperanto" sung to the tune of "Desperado". Written in Esperanto, of course, and performed by las agloj.
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"Esperanto" sung to the tune of "Desperado". Written in Esperanto, of course, and performed by las agloj. Well, you see? You're changing it already! It's a living language! It should be la agloj.
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My bad. I searched a bit to see if the article reflected the plural, but then I just gave up and guessed. Oops.
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"Esperanto" sung to the tune of "Desperado". There's always "Esperanto sung to the tune of "Esperanza": Esperanza
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Esperanto is a plastic flower compared to the living bouquet comprised of our many varied and interconnected languages. Your opinion on Esperanto is based on impressions, not on facts. It's surprising indeed that it is still growing as fast as any other "natural" language. It started with about 900 words and has now over 15000 with the capacity to build 10 times more colourful ones. About the interconnection of languages, have a look at http://remush.be/etimo/etimo.htmlThere is a lot to say about the rapid grow of the language and the rules that must be obeyed to create new terms for new needs. Don't forget that we are a multinational community that cares about the cohesion of the language. Nobody forces you to learn Esperanto if you don't like it. It will remain quite viable without you. No worry. Remuŝ
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Wow--Remus, you're the first-ever person on here from Belgium, or at least the first who identified himself as such. Welcome!
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Welcome, and if so: first from Belgium: double welcome.
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Remus, you're absolutely right that I based my comments on my impression, and - really - I meant no insult. As a biologist, I have always noted the almost perfect parallel between human language and organic evolution. Both seem to follow the same rules, at least on superficial inspection. My comment was a way of saying that compared to the natural evolution of other languages to their present states, Esperanto seems, well - is - artificial. As to your other point, I'll take your word for it that there are a great and increasing number of speakers of Esperanto, but I'll offer that none have it as their sole, native language. It seems more a useful hobby than one of the world's languages.
On the other hand, I will not take your word for it that Esperanto is growing as fast as any other natural language. Even if I spoke Urdu from birth, it would be hard not to notice that there are a tremendous number of non-native English speakers throughout the world, and I would be willing to bet that many more people around the world are learning English as a second language than Esperanto.
Last edited by beck123; 02/26/10 04:22 AM.
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This Latin was imposed on them by the Roman Empire. If Esperanto is ever "imposed" on anyone it will be by voluntary vote of the people on whom it is imposed not by imperial conquest by the dread armies of Esperantujo. Your're right, I forgot about the Hadrian Wall and Nijmegen. But I guess that we mud dwelling barbarian Batavians were quite impressed by their techniques and roads and posh Latin.
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As a biologist, I have always noted the almost perfect parallel between human language and organic evolution. Both seem to follow the same rules, at least on superficial inspection. it seems many linguists do not share this view. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2132
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I should make myself more clear. I did not mean to say (and I did not say at all) that the evolution of human language parallels human evolution. The evolution of human language sheds light on the movement of human populations throughout the last few thousand years, but the time scales are too vastly different for the evolution of languages to reflect human evolution.
I mean to say that the rules that seem to govern the evolution of language are largely parallel to the rules that govern the organic evolution of all living things (again, on a different scale of time for most organisms.) For a simple example, consider a human population in the past that - for whatever reason - becomes divided into two populations that are more-or-less isolated from one another. If the isolation persists over centuries, two distinct languages will likely result (and neither will remain exactly the same as their original language.)
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In all optimism I think we - they - who? will never retrace it all and what would be the fun in that?
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I for one would like to find out. I want to know exactly who first said it (whatever it was) and when. And I'll say it again: I would prefer that there be one Authority somewhere who would say definitively what IS and IS NOT right, re: spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. No "alternative spellings" for me, tyvm. [nod to Max, for the tyvm]
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And I'll say it again: I would prefer that there be one Authority somewhere who would say definitively what IS and IS NOT right, re: spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. No "alternative spellings" for me, tyvm.OK, I gladly and humbly fit that bill. There is no right or wrong. Everything is allowed. Language changes. Get used to it. But, seriously, at this point, it would have to be an international non-governmental organization (and we've seen how effective those are). Like it or not, English is an international language, not owned by one nation. And, even those academies don't do so well. They suggest and proscribe, and folks, they just ignore them, and the language changes.
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BTW, all languages are constructed. It's just a question of how many there are on the committee and whether there's a final arbiter to declare the project done.
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It's just the point that there is no final arbiter. (and the job is never done)
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BTW, all languages are constructed. It's just a question of how many there are on the committee and whether there's a final arbiter to declare the project done. I'd like to hear you expand on this idea. Particularly, are you using "constructed" to imply intentional and active development toward some envisioned end, or are you using it in a more technical, linguistic sense? Also, I understand a committee to be a subgroup - usually a relatively small subgroup - of some larger population. Are you using it in that way, or are you suggesting that the committee may be the entire population speaking a particular language?
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I for one would like to find out. I want to know exactly who first said it (whatever it was) and when. And I'll say it again: I would prefer that there be one Authority somewhere who would say definitively what IS and IS NOT right, re: spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. No "alternative spellings" for me, tyvm. [nod to Max, for the tyvm] I'm afraid this is never going to happen. Language is not like a coin collection, where every element exists somewhere in a static and genuine form, and all we have to do is find and preserve each to be done with it. Language is like every other element of the living world. It does not succeed without diversity wrought by innumerable changes. Every individual uses language to meet his or her own needs, not to comply with a set of rules. Poets, scientists, rhetoricians, gang members, religious organizations - all of us - do this ("tyvm" is a perfect example,) and the modifications so generated may or may not find their way into general use.
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"constructed"I'm not sure about languages being constructed, but they are conventional (I side with the nomos side of the Cratylan argument rather than the physis one. Linguists have a feel for the drift of a language, i.e., how they change over time, but few can agree on how they came about. Chomsky posits that Universal Grammar is part of the human brain. I tend to think of language (i.e., a kind of symbolic calculus) as an extension of pattern recognition in other kinds of animals. committeeThe Académie française, founded by Cardinal Richlieu in 1635, is not really a committee, and the number of its members is 40. They are a little out touch with reality and their latest exploit was opposing constitutional recognition of regional languages ( link).
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Chomsky posits that Universal Grammar is part of the human brain. People who study human prehistory are beginning to agree with him in principle. Something happened to humans about 40,000 years ago in the Near East or eastern Europe. Many believe it involved a leap in language ability. Some call it the "Great Leap." Ideas about what it may have been include 1) the "invention" of grammar (more likely a genetic change that allowed the concept of grammar to be realized,) 2) the development of the conditional tense, 3) and others, all related to language, that I don't recall offhand. Whatever happened marked the emergence of Modern Humans, with whom we could probably converse and share any complex thoughts we may have. Art and other symbolism, the concept of an after-life, and other features of humanity all appear in the blink (a geological blink, that is) of an eye.
Last edited by beck123; 02/27/10 05:45 PM.
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Something happened to humans about 40,000 years ago in the Near East or eastern Europe. Many believe it involved a leap in language ability.
Of course, it's possible, but as writing is only about 5000 years old, we do not know for certain that other hominids did not have language.
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Correct, we don't know for certain. (I'll preface the following by saying that human prehistory is not my field, so I'm certain to be missing the subtleties and may even have some of the big pieces wrong.) Language, being a symbolic construct, is thought to be associated with other manifestations of symbolic thinking. The only other hominid species around at the time of the Great Leap were the neandertals, and there is still some debate as to whether or not they were capable of human language, the general consensus being that they were not.
There is no archeological evidence that they engaged in any symbolic thought: no art, no definite burials, no evidence of ritual, etc. There are discoveries that suggest that neandertals, just before their extinction, interacted with modern humans and may have borrowed some of the non-language, symbolic behaviors that they saw in modern humans. A seashell, recently discovered at a neandertal site, shows traces of paint on it, for example. Because of the dating of this type of discovery, viz., only after the two species were in contact with one another, adornment of this sort is considered by most to be borrowed and not indicative of symbolic thought.
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Shades of "Quest for Fire"
And whether or not Esperanto ever becomes a primary language (by which I mean that at least 2 generations are raised in a community where it is the language spoken in the home and on the street) it still makes as much sense to me as learning Klingon or Tolkein Elvish.
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I think I'd prefer Elvish or Klingon. They seem to be more "in"
though less 'academic'. Tolkien's Elvish was based on Finnish,
I believe. Klingon: who knows? I like the "Quest for Fire"
analogy.
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'academic' ... Klingon: who knows?Klingon was created by a linguist, Marc Okrand. He got his PhD (I have read his 1977 dissertation, Mutsun Grammar) from UC Berkeley. There are numerous linguistic in-jokes in Klingon. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford and worked on the staff of the OED, mainly on etymologies. L Zamenhof, the inventor of Esperanto, was a Russian ophthalmologist. The language in Quest for Fire was designed by the author (and linguist) Anthony Burgess. Not all conlangers are linguists. One of my favorite conlangs is the Real Character language created by Bishop John Wilkins, a founding member of the Royal Society. [Edit to fix URL.]
Last edited by zmjezhd; 03/01/10 12:29 AM.
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This is all illuminating to me. I knew of Esperanto, and I always considered it a serious attempt at unifying elements of various European languages into one common tongue that would be similar to many and, so, easily learned. I knew Klingon was somehow based on the mechanics of genuine language and not just made-up noises. As for all the rest? I had no idea there were so many serious attempts at creating language de novo. (I almost said, "...creating an artificial language...," but it struck me as redundant.) I'll be googling these things all night.
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There are some good books out therre on the subject of artificial languages:
James Knowlson. 1975. Universal Language Schemes in England and France, 1600-1800.
Umberto Eco. 1995. The Search for the Perfect Language.
Marina Yaguello. 2001. Lunatic Lovers of Language: Imaginary Languages and Their Inventors.
Jean-Jacques Lecercle. 1990. The Violence of Language. (Not really about conlanging, but some coterminous fields of study.)
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Great. I thank you for your trouble
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You're welcome. I was looking for the online version of Wilkin's Essay, but it seems to have disappeared since I discovered it on the Web in the previous decade. There is another book on invented languages, that I have not read, but just found while looking at Amazon:
Arika Okrent. 2009. In the Land of Invented Languages: Esperanto Rock Stars, Klingon Poets, Loglan Lovers, and the Mad Dreamers Who Tried to Build A Perfect Language.
I skimmed the first chapter and it looks good. It's written by a linguist and has a light style.
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As a biologist, I have always noted the almost perfect parallel between human language and organic evolution. Both seem to follow the same rules, at least on superficial inspection. What we call evolution should be better called degradation. I need more lines to explain my idea, but this is an entirely other subject. Let's jump to the concept of "entropy". The total entropy may well increase, but it does not prevent it to decrease locally. The "evolution" of languages was chiefly caused by illiteracy and isolation. Esperanto speakers are far from being illiterates, and they are no longer isolated in our global village. Their common characteristic is that they are respectful of their diversity, and are careful to protect the consistency of the language. Esperanto evolves, but inside some fixed rules. In fact, there are significantly less rules in Esperanto than in other languages. Esperantists are striving to decrease the entropy, and not only in the language area. More about evolution.My comment was a way of saying that compared to the natural evolution of other languages to their present states, Esperanto seems, well - is - artificial. As Esperanto rules are based on natural languages, it is difficult to define objective criteria to measure its "artificiality". To an impartial observer, Esperanto may well look like a language that evolved further than any others, like they all should if parents praised their children for their mistakes instead of correcting them. As to your other point, I'll take your word for it that there are a great and increasing number of speakers of Esperanto, but I'll offer that none have it as their sole, native language. According to some guestimates, there would be around two thousands "native speakers". I had the occasion to meet some of them. They are not significantly different from other speakers. One observed that they usually spoke Esperanto better than their parents, what is surprising only at the first sight. As Esperanto is considered as a non-language, the children speaking it feel discriminated and they tend to hide that they know Esperanto. I even met one who understood Esperanto quite well, but could not speak it any longer. My impression is that those native speakers later switch to the language used in the community where they live and study. This language become their primary language. The same phenomenon occurs with other languages than Esperanto. It seems more a useful hobby than one of the world's languages. It usually starts as a hobby. Thereafter one makes some contacts and the circle becomes larger. On the other hand, I will not take your word for it that Esperanto is growing as fast as any other natural language. [...] Klingon is growing even faster: from 1 to 20 in 5 years. Esperanto from 100 to 2 million in 100 years, in spite of two world wars. In absolute numbers, of course, Chinese is growing even faster than English. More about numbers. Remuŝ
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'academic' ... Klingon: who knows?Klingon was created by a linguist, Marc Okrand. He got his PhD (I have read his 1977 dissertation, Mutsun Grammar) from UC Berkeley. There are numerous linguistic in-jokes in Klingon. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford and worked on the staff of the OED, mainly on etymologies. L Zamenhof, the inventor of Esperanto, was a Russian ophthalmologist. The language in Quest for Fire was designed by the author (and linguist) Anthony Burgess. Not all conlangers are linguists. One of my favorite conlangs is the [url=ophthalmologist]Real Character[/url] language created by Bishop John Wilkins, a founding member of the Royal Society. Hey thanks, all new to me, with exception of Tolkien. Appreciate it.
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"It usually starts as a hobby. Thereafter one makes some contacts and the circle becomes larger."
That's why to me it seems the socializing part is the carrier of the 'movement'. Somewhat like freemasons except that this isn't secret, but yes hobbyistic. When you speak of 2000 "native speakers" that would be 2000 bilingual speakers? I suppose.
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[i] When you speak of 2000 "native speakers" that would be 2000 bilingual speakers? I suppose.
More likely three-lingual. All Esperantists are bilingual by construction, they become three or four-lingual later, when they travel abroad to meet their acquaintance. The fastest way to multilingualism is through Esperanto. Unfortunately EU, in spite of its program to promote multilingualism, is opposed to Esperanto, on the ground of its alleged lack of culture, limited vocabulary and other false reasons. The English-speaking elite is afraid to set up any experiment that would disprove the claims of Esperantists. Increasing the number of native speakers of Esperanto is not the objective at all, it's a side effect. Remuŝ
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Yes, I understand you are a real enthousiast for Esperanto. And I assume also enthousiastic for understanding more than two languages. But any anyone who travels and who really loves languages; the first thing he/she does in foreign countries is try to get at it, if he/she hasn't already taken courses in advance. Then why Esperanto if you can go at it directly?
EU is not against Esperanto. It just sees no point in making it a general issue. I don't believe in an English speaking elite. English is the easiest language to learn for Europeans because it has dropped a number of otherwise tackling grammar issues.
Every (even low level) school obliges English.
I don't know how the language situation in Belgium is now. We had to learn English, French and German up to a serious level.
I know in competitions Belgians score better at correct Dutch than the Dutch in general. I assume you speak French, Flemish, obviously English and Esperanto. Any other language that has you special interest?
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Europeans are so much luckier than we are. Trying to teach
a second language, back when I did so, was so difficult, as
no one spoke any of them that were taught. Many people spoke
the language their emigre grandparents and parents brought
from Europe, et. al. but quickly learned English, disparaging
in many cases, their native languages. Spanish is now becoming
a "second" language here, but others not so much.
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Luke, I had the same experience of even foreign languages teachers* having to learn it first, and I wonder if it is due to geography: we in the middle of the U.S. got significant numbers of immigrants far later than coastal areas?
*With the exception of my college professor who was French-Canadian, and warned us that her French wasn't Parisian.
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There's also the problem that most immigrants who filled steerage weren't well educated. My grandfather (Sicily) was a laborer and his father an orchardist. My grandmother's parents (Rheinhessen) were peasants. Same on the other side of the family. These folks weren't hired as teachers!
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Also, the people who filled steerage - the great mass of immigrants - were generally not well educated. My grandfather (Sicily) was a laborer and his father a carpenter and orchardist. My grandmother's family (Rheinhessen) were peasants. It was similar on the other side of my family. Nor did they speak English when they arrived, so they weren't considered suitable as teachers.
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most immigrants who filled steerage weren't well educated
Also, most immigrants to this country usually did not speak the standard language of the nation states they came from, but the local dialect.
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@ beck: your double post reminded me of a poem of Yeats' that is available in two edited versions. It is fascinating to see the mind of the poet working across the two edits of the poem. To google the poem is a bit beyond me else I would have posted its two versions here.
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Luke, I had the same experience of even foreign languages teachers* having to learn it first, and I wonder if it is due to geography: we in the middle of the U.S. got significant numbers of immigrants far later than coastal areas?
*With the exception of my college professor who was French-Canadian, and warned us that her French wasn't Parisian. I likewise taught French for a number of years, hearing it only on movies or recordings, and based on what my teacher had taught. Having had the opportunity to visit Quebec I had the most difficult time understanding what was being said. I could read and speak, but not understand, it was most frustrating.
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Heres my new word for the day.
elecˇtroˇmyoˇgraph
an instrument that converts the electrical activity associated with functioning skeletal muscle into a visual record or into sound.
This technology can help people who have lost their voice due to an accident or illness. But an interesting application is its use as a translator. Because the electrical pulses are universal they can be transformed into the language of the user's choice. Much like the universal translators employed in Scifi stories.
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@ beck: your double post reminded me... I wish I could say I were imitating Yeats, but the fact is that my computer geeked things up. I couldn't see the first post once I posted it, so I recreated its essence from memory... and then couldn't see that version in the forum, either! So, not hardly a poet, but you've all had the chance to see the mind of a simpleton at work, which might be interesting in itself.
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...an interesting application is its use as a translator. Because the electrical pulses are universal they can be transformed into the language of the user's choice. Is this actual or potential technology? I've never heard of it, and I don't see how it could work. Wouldn't the pattern of pulses be different if one is saying (voicing?) the word "work" rather than " trabajo?" The use of voiceprints to identify unseen speakers or to detect stress reflected in vocalizations suggests that the pulses are not universal. Tell us more.
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Still in development but Here is the article I read. I'd imagine the output would be similar to a speech recognition device, stilted and electronic sounding with no context or intonation.
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I could see how something like that would work. one could simply have several(many) language/waveform databases to draw on when translating. certainly "work" in English would have a different waveform than "trabajo" in Spanish.
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I think we all (I included) are confusing the waveforms of spoken language with the chart of neuroelectrical impulses made by the muscles that operate the vocal tract. The latter is what this technology is recording, and where would the databases be for these? In all languages? More, after I read the article.
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Dangerous stuff this. Technology that terrifies or could terrify.
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Combine writing in invisable ink with soundless speaking. Cheerful.
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the chart of neuroelectrical impulses made by the muscles that operate the vocal tract
Phonetics is divided readily into two branches, the acoustic and the articulatory. The former having to do with the acoustic features of language sounds and the latter with the production of those. When I was at university, the equipment necessary for making spectrograms was huge and expensive. These days, one can download any of a number of software applications, hook up a microphone to the computer, and make them. In humans, phonetic sounds are made with the vocal tract and processed by the cochlea in in the ear. I have not seen the charts mentioned in the news story linked to above, but I cannot but imagine that they look nothing like spectrograms of the same speech. Now whether the two sets of data could be compared and one identified from the other is within the realm of possibility.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I think we all (I included) are confusing the waveforms of spoken language with the chart of neuroelectrical impulses made by the muscles that operate the vocal tract. The latter is what this technology is recording, and where would the databases be for these? In all languages? More, after I read the article. my bad. I would use spoken language waveforms in my little database/comparison gizmo.
formerly known as etaoin...
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stranger
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stranger
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But any anyone who travels and who really loves languages; the first thing he/she does in foreign countries is try to get at it, if he/she hasn't already taken courses in advance. I am moderately interested in languages. My first experience with Dutch was a disaster. Then why Esperanto if you can go at it directly? All my contacts do not speak the same language. In multinational fora, it's convenient to use one language instead of having to translate everything in several. Many choose English or Esperanto. I chose English and Esperanto, in which I feel more comfortable. EU is not against Esperanto see http://forums.ec.europa.eu/multilingualism/ and other Figel's interventions. I don't believe in an English speaking elite. So you believe in Globish-speaking masses. Globish is the down-graded version of English. English is the easiest language to learn for Europeans because it has dropped a number of otherwise tackling grammar issues. Every (even low level) school obliges English. I own a pile of grammar books in English. Actually none has the title "grammar book", even if they all attempt to describe some features of the language. I don't know how the language situation in Belgium is now. We had to learn English, French and German up to a serious level. English is the language of choice. French is declining North. Dutch is better accepted South. German is on the decline everywhere. The level obtained after 6 years of studying English is still not satisfactory. One will have to start sooner. I assume you speak French, Flemish, obviously English and Esperanto. Any other language that has you special interest? I want to be fluent in Polish by the end of the year. I probably will spend some time on Chinese next year, but there is no hurry: I just want to be able to help my grandchildren when they'll be looking for a job :-) Remuŝ
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stranger
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stranger
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I don't really see where there was ever a language imposed on the entire British Isles. Englands domination over Wales, Scotland, and Ireland introduced the English language to these regions, but with the devastating consequence of the downfall of the local languages. Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Scots, and Irish (among others) were all prohibited in education at one time or another, which possibly contributed the most to the plummeting usage of the languages. In Wales, the Welsh Not (a piece of wood with the carved letters WN that was hung around the childrens necks) was used in the 1800s to punish students for speaking Welsh, and beating students for using non-English languages was common throughout all of the countries. Welsh, Scots Gaelic, and Irish had inferior status to English, whereas Scots wasnt even recognized as a separate language, and all suffered as a result. It wasnt until the 20th century that the British government started taking steps to protect these languages, which has been met with mixed success. In all of the countries the local languages are now spoken by a minority, and are still very much secondary to English. About other cases of modern linguistic genocide, see http://listverse.com/2010/02/26/10-modern-cases-of-linguistic-genocide/Remuŝ
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Me: I don't believe in an English speaking elite.
You: So you believe in Globish-speaking masses. Globish is the down-graded version of English. I did tell you what I don't believe in, not what I do believe in. I've read the article and do agree with the writer: "The multilingualism of the European Union is defined within clear limits by Community law. A language can become an official language of the EU if it meets three conditions: it has to be an official language of a Member State, stated by its Constitution; the Member State in question requests its recognition as an official language at the EU level; the other Member States approve this unanimously.
This is one of the reasons that Esperanto cannot become the lingua franca of the European Union.
The second reason has to do with its specificity. A language like Esperanto has little social or cultural practice connected to its
vocabulary. The practical and financial implications of creating entire domains ex novo in an artificial language are immense. Think only of customs codes or banking legislation or the technical requirements for pressure vessels of simple geometric form sometimes known as brake cylinders.
The third reason is a more personal one: I do not believe in a lingua franca, be it Esperanto, Latin or English. On the other hand, lingua franca is, historically, a spontaneous social linguistic phenomenon and is not the result of any legislative or political decision. Probably some Esperantists on this forum do not agree with my position, but I believe we need to share our views (I found some of the arguments very interesting, although I did not agree with some of them)." This does not say Europe is against Esperanto, only that it cannot accept it as an official language. The reasons seem valid,to me. Learning languages besides fun is useful for work and socializing. But there is enough work to be done that needs no special language studies. Nice to learn Polish. Enjoy! But.. what if your grandchildren will not be the studying types? ( I always assumed Belgians learn both French ŕnd Flemish-Dutch in school. See how much we know about are next door neighbours  )
Last edited by BranShea; 03/03/10 07:56 PM.
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addict
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I probably will spend some time on Chinese next year, but there is no hurry: I just want to be able to help my grandchildren when they'll be looking for a job I understand Chinese is very difficult for one to learn well if one is not exposed to it at a very early age (less than 18 months.) Something about certain consonant sounds becoming indistinguishable to the unprimed ear after that stage of development. I recall years ago reading about a very clever study that demonstrated this effect using children of European ancestry and a Native American language, not Chinese. I also experienced this with Polish. My wife would say a simple word in Polish, and I would try - repeatedly and unsuccessfully - to reproduce the word. I could hear no difference, but she could. Yet, with languages I heard as a child - German, Yiddish, Spanish - I'm told I speak with no noticeable accent.
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I understand Chinese is very difficult for one to learn well if one is not exposed to it at a very early age (less than 18 months.
That's pretty much true of all languages. It is pretty hard to reach accentless perfection if you learn the language as a secon language, say past about 5 or 7 years of age.
I also experienced this with Polish. My wife would say a simple word in Polish, and I would try - repeatedly and unsuccessfully - to reproduce the word.
It's interesting because the two sets of sounds (in Mandarin and Polish) are similar. The difference between alveolar, retroflex, and alveolar-palatal affricates and fricatives /s/, /ʂ/, /ts/, /tsʰ/. /tʂ/, /tʂʰ/, /tɕ/, /tɕʰ/ in Mandarin Chinese; in Polish, the difference between dental-alveolar, retroflex, and palatal affricates and fricatives /t͡s/, /d͡z/, /͡ʂ̠/, /d͡ʐ̠/, /t͡ɕ/, /d͡ʑ/. It's nothijng mysterious. Most non-native speakers have difficulty hearing and producing phonemes that fall outside of their native language's inventory. (It's interesting, most people complain about tones when learning Chinese.) when I was trying to learn Mandarin, I would practice with a Chinese friend, who was a native Cantonese speaker, and even I could recognize that he had a string Cantonese accent when speaking Mandarin. In isolation, one word at a time, say in a vocabulary list, it could cause confusion, but in context it's not as bad as getting the tones wrong. Some people just have a knack for mimicking sounds. Others don't. I still have a tough time hearing and producing the voiced and voiceless, aspirated and non-aspirated series of consonants in Sanskrit and Hindi: e.g., p, ph, b, bh, etc. Funny thing is I have some Indian friends who speak Tamil, and they have the same problem, though their Hindi is much better than mine. In the end, if you learn a language as an adult, you'll probably have trouble with phonology and syntax, although maybe one more than the other.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Funny thing is I have some Indian friends who speak Tamil, and they have the same problem, though their Hindi is much better than mine.
this is common among tamil speakers. here is a young native tamil speaker talking about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRKDT_nW5u8
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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this is common among tamil speakers
Yes, I didn't mean to imply that it was some rare fault of my friends. Tamil only has one consonant for each of those four in Sanskrit/Hindi: p for p, ph, b, bh; t for t, th, d, dh; etc. I remember when I was learning the Tamil syllabary, I looked at a religious of my friend's mom's: I saw some Sanskrit transliterated into Tamil script. It was impossible to figure out what the Sanskrit words actually were. When I lived in Germany, I used to marvel at how many ways my name, Jim, could be pronounced, especially the j, but also the i. The m was pretty standard.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Here's my punishment for not taking email notifications. I've searched myself silly to find back esperanto cause you changed the headline to accents. OK. got it.
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old hand
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old hand
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this is common among tamil speakers
Tamil only has one consonant for each of those four in Sanskrit/Hindi: p for p, ph, b, bh; t for t, th, d, dh; etc. . I did not know this. I can understand and speak some Tamil but I cannot read the script. Perhaps that is why I did not know that it does away with all the other consonant variations that exist in hindi and mostly other languages. I guess to learn more about your own home look beyond it. The other south indian languages kannada, Telugu have the variation I know for sure. I am not sure of malayalam. ETA: I just saw the video. My accent is pretty much like that of the girl in the video: bolzo, bolzo for bolo, bolo (hindi for speak, speak). It is an accent made much fun of in Hindi cinema as she points out.
Last edited by Avy; 03/06/10 03:47 AM.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Perhaps that is why I did not know that it does away with all the other consonant variations that exist in hindi and mostly other languages.it is not so much that Tamil did away with them, Dravidian languages simply have a very different phonemic inventory than Indo-Aryan languages. The phonology of Proto-Dravidian (the reconstructed ancestor of Tamil, Malayalam, Kanada, and Telegu) only has unvoiced, unaspirated stops ( link).
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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