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[
Quote:
quote=zmjezhd]Well, almost.

Yes, in many cases, the "problem" had been brewing or was in full boil before the council was convened, decision made, and concrete cures.
[/quote]


Isn't interesting, and in a way, sad, how we can look back and see mistakes that had
been brewing, and the end result from a few centuries later. What if the pope had
made Luther a Cardinal? What if the pope had read the these posted on the doors?
Did he? Did it matter? What was the threat? A lifestyle? Money? Why cannot people
who disagree get together and work it out? Do we do so today? (Gaza?)


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Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8
[
Quote:
quote=zmjezhd]Well, almost.

Yes, in many cases, the "problem" had been brewing or was in full boil before the council was convened, decision made, and concrete cures.



Isn't interesting, and in a way, sad, how we can look back and see mistakes that had
been brewing, and the end result from a few centuries later. What if the pope had
made Luther a Cardinal? What if the pope had read the these posted on the doors?
Did he? Did it matter? What was the threat? A lifestyle? Money? Why cannot people
who disagree get together and work it out? Do we do so today? (Gaza?) [/quote]

The Pope did read the 95 Theses. His first response to them is alleged to have been, "The German monk writes good Latin." In effect, the Pope was not sufficiently astute involving issues of theology to understand the implications of the theses.

They did not have a negative impact on him until monies from the German States began drying up. Then Rome took notice. But, while the effect is what caused notice to be taken, the effect was not the crux. The crux was theological.

Appointing Luther as a Cardinal would not have changed the impact of the theology of the theses.

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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
There is a sharp divide between Orthodox (eastern) and Catholic (western) churches.

I've been reading a book The Councils of the Church: A Short History by Norman Tanner. It is interesting that each ecumenical council (link) was convened to deal with an issue of orthodoxy, and that after the decision was made a schism occurred. For example, the Fourth Council of Constantinople which led to the Roman Catholic/Orthodox schism and the Council of Trent which led to the Roman Catholic/Protestant divide.


The Council of Trent did not lead to the Roman Catholic/Protestant divide. The divide had already taken place. The Council of Trent really only set in stone the departuare of the Roman church from its prior biblical moorings and set it on its current course.

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Originally Posted By: PastorVon
Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8
[
Quote:
quote=zmjezhd]Well, almost.

Yes, in many cases, the "problem" had been brewing or was in full boil before the council was convened, decision made, and concrete cures.



Isn't interesting, and in a way, sad, how we can look back and see mistakes that had
been brewing, and the end result from a few centuries later. What if the pope had
made Luther a Cardinal? What if the pope had read the these posted on the doors?
Did he? Did it matter? What was the threat? A lifestyle? Money? Why cannot people
who disagree get together and work it out? Do we do so today? (Gaza?)


The Pope did read the 95 Theses. His first response to them is alleged to have been, "The German monk writes good Latin." In effect, the Pope was not sufficiently astute involving issues of theology to understand the implications of the theses.

They did not have a negative impact on him until monies from the German States began drying up. Then Rome took notice. But, while the effect is what caused notice to be taken, the effect was not the crux. The crux was theological.

Quote:
Appointing Luther as a Cardinal would not have changed the impact of the theology of the theses.
[/quote]


Appointing Luther a Cardinal would have at least brought him to the place where dialog might
have taken place. And the end cause ultimately was money? Yes? if the German princes
stopped sending their purses.


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Originally Posted By: PastorVon
BTW, the Radio Frequency Ablation of the Saphenous Veins in my left leg went fairly well yesterday. There is some tendernous this morning and a couple of spots that are sore to the touch. I'm leaving the house in a few minutes to have a Doppler Ultrasound to ascertain that things are as they ought to be on the inside.

Glad to hear it. Sounds a lot more technical than my left leg, which has a broken 5th metatarsil. I got it out of plaster on Monday but have to wear an orthotic boot for a few weeks as the bone in the gap still isn't strong enough. I should have had a screw put in it, but an operation before Christmas (which is the subject of this thread so I'm still on topic!) just wasn't convenient so I opted for just the cast. Hopefully it will eventually heal okay.

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Appointing Luther as a Cardinal would not have changed the impact of the theology of the theses.

Who can know for sure. When Hendri de Navarre converted to Catholicism (he was a Huguenot) so he could be crowned King of France, he said: "Paris vaut bien une messe." (Paris is worth a mass.)


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Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8
Isn't interesting, and in a way, sad, how we can look back and see mistakes that had
been brewing, and the end result from a few centuries later.

The events leading up to, or paving the way for, the Reformation include:

The Conciliar movement, which sought to limit the power of the Pope in favour of councils.

The translation by Wyclif and others of the bible into English and other vulgar tongues.

The rising and persecution of various 'heretical' proto-Protestant groups, partly because of the availability of bibles in the common language. These included the Lollards, Waldenses and Hussites for example.

The rediscovery of better ancient Hebrew and Greek manuscripts for translating the bible, which meant less reliance on the Latin Vulgate.

Political moves against the Pope by various Electors, Princes, Monarchs, and Holy Roman Emperors, and the rise of havens of relative toleration of dissent in states like Holland.

The invention of the printing press, which meant new ideas could escape and disseminate rapidly before being immediately quashed by the Church.

The rise of Christian Humanism (which predated secular humanism by several centuries) and classical study. This produced scholars like Erasmus, who although he didn't become a Reformer himself, gave fuel to their scholarly success and produced new standard Greek texts for translation.

...and on the negative side, the increasing corruption and open immorality of the Church heirarchy, which produced increasing indignation, especially in places like Germany which were also heavily taxed by the Pope.

Quote:
What if the pope had made Luther a Cardinal?

Luther would never have accepted a political/ecclesiastical bribe in return for recanting. He was not interested in power and advancement, only Truth. He was not a politician like Henri of Navarre, but the son of peasant, and was not in the least bit diplomatic or machiavellian. Compromise was not in his vocabulary.

Quote:
Why cannot people who disagree get together and work it out? Do we do so today? (Gaza?)

Luther (and the bible) would have called it 'sin'. That's why. We are fundamentally self-centered. And when groups of self-centered people form into a society we get the ethno-centricity that leads to war. But there is a difference between tolerating people (which we ought to do whether or not they agree with us) and tolerating ideas by doing what our relativistic post modernism does by coming up with this ridiculous idea that everyone's ideas are equally valid and true. That's nonsense.

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It is easy to judge from hindsight. But who is really to know
what might have happened? Nonsense? That could be just
your opinion. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


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Originally Posted By: The Pook
But there is a difference between tolerating people (which we ought to do whether or not they agree with us) and tolerating ideas by doing what our relativistic post modernism does by coming up with this ridiculous idea that everyone's ideas are equally valid and true. That's nonsense.


Isn't there an inconsistancy here between tolerating people who do not have the ideas one agrees with (which you say we ought to do), and not tolerating 'everyones' ideas because they are not equally valid or true to one's own? Ideas never stand on their own.

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I'm not sure tolerating ideas is the same thing as agreeing that they are equally valid. If you say that snow is black and I say it is white then however much I love you I cannot think that your idea is equally true and valid. (I may also wonder if your eyesight is valid) I will however "tolerate" your idea in that I do agree with your right to have and defend your idea.

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